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Post by Skyfall on Jul 15, 2021 10:29:25 GMT
The problem with this cult is that it is extremely difficult to convince anyone still in the cult all by yourself. This forum is a nice vehicle in that since it's inception it's been documenting what is actually going on in this organization. So while a single story is not believable, it is incredible how similar these stories are in nature. The victims all have similar stories. All of them. Many of us here have siblings, and relatives stuck in this cult, and there's really nothing you can do about it. But this forum certainly helps.
The admin team here has been through the ringer with many of the consistories throughout the churches. They know how it operates. They know the players. They know the game. So I would suggest that you simply plant the seed of this site. Just tell them to read the site - they don't even have to post. Just read all about "the truest church" and let it all sink in. It's certainly a process, and it won't happen over night. Sadly it may not even happen at all - but at least you've planted seeds, and that is the best thing you can do.
Regarding your sisters in the school: I would suggest that if they have been wronged, DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE at the school, but go directly to the authorities, aka, the police. If in fact RVO has been meeting underaged kids in private rooms, without their parent's knowledge, and this has been given the nod by the principle at CCHS, this is in fact, illegal, and the current leadership at CCHS is broken (potentially by design). This needs to be reported to the appropriate public authorities.
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Post by throwaway2018 on Jul 15, 2021 13:13:58 GMT
I am sure I am not alone here in that I have younger siblings who are still stuck in this indefensible sh*tshow of an organization. With the recent thread about RVO and how he likely groomed young women at CCHS, and the staff was likely well aware of what was going on, I am no longer simply jaded about this sect (though I have been free for a few years now), I am angry beyond words. This whole forum used to be a form of entertainment for me; a way to pass the time and remind myself of how lucky I am to have seen through the very thick layers of BS and that had the courage (yes, courage) to leave. I have two sisters who still attend CCHS. They are told by all, including our parents, to see their teachers there as examples of how to live a godly life and that they can trust the faculty there, as if they are the voice of God or something. With at least six accusations that I'm aware of so far, I think the probability of the accusations being false is very low, and the probability that there were several rats who enabled RVO, very high. The recently written thread about Loveland brings a memory back. I remember my father, who served as an elder and recently left office, made some disparaging comment about the amount of abuse taking place in Loveland. 'People out there in Colorado are weird', or something along those lines. He had apparently told the rest of my family about it as well, since the rest of them verbally agreed with him. When I mentioned once that I was thinking about moving in with a friend in the Denver area, they all said I was crazy to want to move there. Personally, I don't believe there's something in the air in CO that makes husbands abuse their wives, so I didn't take these comments from my family so seriously. What I found disturbing, however, was how my parents had failed to tell my sisters about the way the Loveland consistory has criminally bungled abuse cases there, with the perpetrators being allowed to maintain their reputation as godly men in the "true church of God" and walk freely in society. And I know for a fact that the Loveland consistory is only one of many who have f*cked things up in a similar manner. I have a sister who is a bit older than the ones in high school who knows what's up, and I suspect she is considering leaving soon like I did, so that helps. I believe my parents do have my sisters' best interest at heart, but they seem to be going way too far in apologizing for and defending the PRC. I think they know deep down that the PRC is no safe place for anyone, let alone young, vulnerable women, but their whole way of life and worldview would collapse if they actively recognize the PRC for what it really is and confess this to my siblings. My sisters are salt-of-the-Earth people, and they deeply respect my parents, despite all my parents' faults. They usually agree with what they think, without much critical thought. This needs to change, and I believe I have a heavy responsibility in helping them acquire this skill of critical thinking. Their lives, physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing very much depend on it. Frankly, I don't think my father has the balls to have a real talk with them about what this organization is really about. I mention him specifically, because he is much more privy to denominational info than my mother is (any surprise there?), and he is also a better critical thinker than she is. I know she will never be the one to have such a talk with them. As the title suggests, I would very much appreciate any words of advice on how to deal with this situation, both in helping my sisters and in not letting this drag me down so much. I know some of you have gone through similar things. I mention again; this forum is no longer a source of entertainment for me. Reading all the stories of people on here who have suffered so much at the hands of the PRC and having the people I love the most still stuck in the machinery causes me to lose sleep out of anger and worry. I am so thankful this forum exists! I would like to strongly encourage you to study the backfire effect and understand how it’s triggered. By giving someone unwanted information that disrupts their worldview, you can actually make their worldview stronger rather than weakening it. Trying to change someone’s mind can actually trigger a defense mechanism that not only makes it harder to change their mind, but also makes them less open to new information in the future. If you are still wanting to talk to them despite this risk, I suggest you plant seeds. Look up Socratic questioning and follow their methods. These methods were designed with the intent of avoiding the backfire effect, however it’s never been proven if they’re actually effective. Just from my own personal experience, I have felt that my conversations using this method have been more effective than those that didn’t. I would really suggest just going about like normal but maybe talking about things from your perspective more. Framing things as “I’m so happy to have left” rather than “I think you would be happier if you left.” This keeps dialogue open and allows them to meet it on their own terms rather than being pushed into a conversation that they’re not ready for.
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Post by abcdefg on Jul 15, 2021 13:53:49 GMT
I started writing a response, and decided against posting because it was too depressing. It sucks seeing someone close to you suffer while you are helplessly watching. You wish you could do something, anything. Its like a bad dream. Now I'm sad.
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Post by KristianWrights on Jul 15, 2021 14:13:19 GMT
I am sure I am not alone here in that I have younger siblings who are still stuck in this indefensible sh*tshow of an organization. With the recent thread about RVO and how he likely groomed young women at CCHS, and the staff was likely well aware of what was going on, I am no longer simply jaded about this sect (though I have been free for a few years now), I am angry beyond words. This whole forum used to be a form of entertainment for me; a way to pass the time and remind myself of how lucky I am to have seen through the very thick layers of BS and that had the courage (yes, courage) to leave. I have two sisters who still attend CCHS. They are told by all, including our parents, to see their teachers there as examples of how to live a godly life and that they can trust me the faculty there, as if they are the voice of God or something. With at least six accusations that I'm aware of so far, I think the probability of the accusations being false is very low, and the probability that there were several rats who enabled RVO, very high. The recently written thread about Loveland brings a memory back. I remember my father, who served as an elder and recently left office, made some disparaging comment about the amount of abuse taking place in Loveland. 'People out there in Colorado are weird', or something along those lines. He had apparently told the rest of my family about it as well, since the rest of them verbally agreed with him. When I mentioned once that I was thinking about moving in with a friend in the Denver area, they all said I was crazy to want to move there. Personally, I don't believe there's something in the air in CO that makes husbands abuse their wives, so I didn't take these comments from my family so seriously. What I found disturbing, however, was how my parents had failed to tell my sisters about the way the Loveland consistory has criminally bungled abuse cases there, with the perpetrators being allowed to maintain their reputation as godly men in the "true church of God" and walk freely in society. And I know for a fact that the Loveland consistory is only one of many who have f*cked things up in a similar manner. I have a sister who is a bit older than the ones in high school who knows what's up, and I suspect she is considering leaving soon like I did, so that helps. I believe my parents do have my sisters' best interest at heart, but they seem to be going way too far in apologizing for and defending the PRC. I think they know deep down that the PRC is no safe place for anyone, let alone young, vulnerable women, but their whole way of life and worldview would collapse if they actively recognize the PRC for what it really is and confess this to my siblings. My sisters are salt-of-the-Earth people, and they deeply respect my parents, despite all my parents' faults. They usually agree with what they think, without much critical thought. This needs to change, and I believe I have a heavy responsibility in helping them acquire this skill of critical thinking. Their lives, physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing very much depend on it. Frankly, I don't think my father has the balls to have a real talk with them about what this organization is really about. I mention him specifically, because he is much more privy to denominational info than my mother is (any surprise there?), and he is also a better critical thinker than she is. I know she will never be the one to have such a talk with them. As the title suggests, I would very much appreciate any words of advice on how to deal with this situation, both in helping my sisters and in not letting this drag me down so much. I know some of you have gone through similar things. I mention again; this forum is no longer a source of entertainment for me. Reading all the stories of people on here who have suffered so much at the hands of the PRC and having the people I love the most still stuck in the machinery causes me to lose sleep out of anger and worry. I am so thankful this forum exists! I’m so sorry - so very sorry about how this so called church and so called Christian school has a grip still on your family. Your words brought me to tears and made me Nauseous. I wish I could Help in any way. But I just don’t know how or what we can do. I hope someone in this forum can bring some guidance on what you can do or what we can do? Please someone in this forum help these sisters…
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Post by dontdoxmebro on Jul 15, 2021 16:49:39 GMT
I would like to strongly encourage you to study the backfire effect and understand how it’s triggered. By giving someone unwanted information that disrupts their worldview, you can actually make their worldview stronger rather than weakening it. Trying to change someone’s mind can actually trigger a defense mechanism that not only makes it harder to change their mind, but also makes them less open to new information in the future. If you are still wanting to talk to them despite this risk, I suggest you plant seeds. Look up Socratic questioning or street epistemology and follow their methods. These methods were designed with the intent of avoiding the backfire effect, however it’s never been proven if they’re actually effective. Just from my own personal experience, I have felt that my conversations using this method have been more effective than those that didn’t. I would really suggest just going about like normal but maybe talking about things from your perspective more. Framing things as “I’m so happy to have left” rather than “I think you would be happier if you left.” This keeps dialogue open and allows them to meet it on their own terms rather than being pushed into a conversation that they’re not ready for. ^ Yes to all of this.
Never challenge someone's beliefs directly; always ask them questions like "why do you think it is we believe this thing" (leaving the question inclusive). I'm generally not big on deconverting or de-programming people; but there is nothing wrong with prompting someone to think for themselves.
Hilarious, and common example of an acceptable PR conversation in this vein, just about something less significant: "Why do you like Michigan football, and not Michigan State football?"
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Post by questioneverything on Jul 15, 2021 18:13:13 GMT
I would like to strongly encourage you to study the backfire effect and understand how it’s triggered. By giving someone unwanted information that disrupts their worldview, you can actually make their worldview stronger rather than weakening it. Trying to change someone’s mind can actually trigger a defense mechanism that not only makes it harder to change their mind, but also makes them less open to new information in the future. If you are still wanting to talk to them despite this risk, I suggest you plant seeds. Look up Socratic questioning or street epistemology and follow their methods. These methods were designed with the intent of avoiding the backfire effect, however it’s never been proven if they’re actually effective. Just from my own personal experience, I have felt that my conversations using this method have been more effective than those that didn’t. I would really suggest just going about like normal but maybe talking about things from your perspective more. Framing things as “I’m so happy to have left” rather than “I think you would be happier if you left.” This keeps dialogue open and allows them to meet it on their own terms rather than being pushed into a conversation that they’re not ready for. ^ Yes to all of this.
Never challenge someone's beliefs directly; always ask them questions like "why do you think it is we believe this thing" (leaving the question inclusive). I'm generally not big on deconverting or de-programming people; but there is nothing wrong with prompting someone to think for themselves.
Hilarious, and common example of an acceptable PR conversation in this vein, just about something less significant: "Why do you like Michigan football, and not Michigan State football?"
The have cooler helmets.
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Post by midwestchristian on Jul 15, 2021 18:48:14 GMT
Thankfully my wife and I have experienced gradually improving relationships with her siblings since we left the PRC many years ago. I think the main thing is to continue to be kind to those relatives still in the PRC. Look for ways to express interest in their lives. Be willing to share things that are going on in your life, even if their reception to this is a little awkward. For example, I had a great conversation recently with one of my PR brothers-in-laws about Christian books we've read over the last few years. Turns out we've read a lot of the same stuff and it was great to simply share our impressions.
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Post by KristianWrights on Jul 15, 2021 19:17:38 GMT
I’m so sorry - so very sorry about how this so called church and so called Christian school has a grip still on your family. Your words brought me to tears and made me Nauseous. I wish I could Help in any way. But I just don’t know how or what we can do. I hope someone in this forum can bring some guidance on what you can do or what we can do? Please someone in this forum help these sisters… . That was a lot of information that can be used to identify you. I wouldn’t feel comfortable posting all that for fear of being doxxed. Ok, I took note and edited
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Post by KristianWrights on Jul 15, 2021 19:24:20 GMT
Pretty pathetic that I had to edit what I said - for fear that some pr might out me. Why? Why do I have to hide anymore. It’s not like the stuff that I have said here isn’t the truth. And I pretty sure everything I have said I would say to someone’s face. Oh well - this thread isn’t about me. It’s about helping this fellow human with the sad situation that his sisters are in.
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Post by Feminist on Jul 16, 2021 1:53:42 GMT
Maybe if they like to read, you could mention some “really interesting books” in a conversation.
Educated & Unfollow are two that pop into mind right now. Unfollow might even seem to really hit home to a questioning PR.
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Post by Sophia M. on Jul 16, 2021 16:58:25 GMT
From the OP's 3rd to last paragraph: "I believe I have a heavy responsibility in helping them acquire this skill of critical thinking."
As an oldest child in a large sibling group, I had a tendency to think this in my teens and 20s. It is a symptom of being parentified at a young age (expected to take the role of a parent with younger siblings while still very young.) At the age of nine, i was caring for a newborn brother and supervising 2 slightly younger sisters 1-2 evenings a week on the regular when parents were out with church events, church social outings and Bible studies. I have seen the term "parentification" more often in the last year as this is being more talked about in public discourse.
It is a breeding ground for long term sibling resentment when parents put some children in the role of being regular "acting parents" to their siblings, because it mixes up the distinctions of who are the kids and who are the parents, of which household inhabitants are still developing, and which are supposed to be responsible and mature. Even precocious and motivated 8-11 year olds are not meant to be sibling caregivers for long periods of time.
So when we siblings feel responsible into adulthood to educate or reeducate any siblings that are younger than us, it is a sign we need to do more healing work of our own. To be free from an idea that a major role in our existence is to help raise our siblings. We are not responsible, like parents are, for their developmental care, health or well-being. We can't enjoy our siblings, set good boundaries with them, or be brothers/sisters to them until we heal from the early beliefs that we are supposed to help parent them. either because our parents were overwhelmed with too many household, childcare and social responsibilities, or because our parents believe it is normal and healthy for very young girls to start co-parenting as part of their education and training.
I had a counselor encourage me to consider that the best way to go forward in relationships with my siblings is to stop feeling responsible for them--their development or life choices, and to keep taking care of my own health, boundaries, my own household, my own social and community connections. Younger siblings or cousins may be watching what we are doing and seeing possibilities in the freedom we choose, but that is not the point or the goal either.
Hope that helps! Some emotional distance and some boundaries are not a sign of lack of love or a lack of interest, but a way of loving yourself and others and individual family members by refusing to stay emotionally fused to a toxic family culture.
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Post by questioneverything on Jul 16, 2021 17:38:38 GMT
From the OP's 3rd to last paragraph: "I believe I have a heavy responsibility in helping them acquire this skill of critical thinking." As an oldest child in a large sibling group, I had a tendency to think this in my teens and 20s. It is a symptom of being parentified at a young age (expected to take the role of a parent with younger siblings while still very young.) At the age of nine, i was caring for a newborn brother and supervising 2 slightly younger sisters 1-2 evenings a week on the regular when parents were out with church events, church social outings and Bible studies. I have seen the term "parentification" more often in the last year as this is being more talked about in public discourse. It is a breeding ground for long term sibling resentment when parents put some children in the role of being regular "acting parents" to their siblings, because it mixes up the distinctions of who are the kids and who are the parents, of which household inhabitants are still developing, and which are supposed to be responsible and mature. Even precocious and motivated 8-11 year olds are not meant to be sibling caregivers for long periods of time. So when we siblings feel responsible into adulthood to educate or reeducate any siblings that are younger than us, it is a sign we need to do more healing work of our own. To be free from an idea that a major role in our existence is to help raise our siblings. We are not responsible, like parents are, for their developmental care, health or well-being. We can't enjoy our siblings, set good boundaries with them, or be brothers/sisters to them until we heal from the early beliefs that we are supposed to help parent them. either because our parents were overwhelmed with too many household, childcare and social responsibilities, or because our parents believe it is normal and healthy for very young girls to start co-parenting as part of their education and training. I had a counselor encourage me to consider that the best way to go forward in relationships with my siblings is to stop feeling responsible for them--their development or life choices, and to keep taking care of my own health, boundaries, my own household, my own social and community connections. Younger siblings or cousins may be watching what we are doing and seeing possibilities in the freedom we choose, but that is not the point or the goal either. Hope that helps! Some emotional distance and some boundaries are not a sign of lack of love or a lack of interest, but a way of loving yourself and others and individual family members by refusing to stay emotionally fused to a toxic family culture. I agree with this. Of course, having PR parents who can't critically think themselves creates quite the conundrum, I suspect.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 23:25:38 GMT
Maybe if they like to read, you could mention some “really interesting books” in a conversation. Educated & Unfollow are two that pop into mind right now. Unfollow might even seem to really hit home to a questioning PR. I have heard of those; I plan to read them in the near future. Thanks for the further motivation to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 23:27:26 GMT
The problem with this cult is that it is extremely difficult to convince anyone still in the cult all by yourself. This forum is a nice vehicle in that since it's inception it's been documenting what is actually going on in this organization. So while a single story is not believable, it is incredible how similar these stories are in nature. The victims all have similar stories. All of them. Many of us here have siblings, and relatives stuck in this cult, and there's really nothing you can do about it. But this forum certainly helps. The admin team here has been through the ringer with many of the consistories throughout the churches. They know how it operates. They know the players. They know the game. So I would suggest that you simply plant the seed of this site. Just tell them to read the site - they don't even have to post. Just read all about "the truest church" and let it all sink in. It's certainly a process, and it won't happen over night. Sadly it may not even happen at all - but at least you've planted seeds, and that is the best thing you can do. Regarding your sisters in the school: I would suggest that if they have been wronged, DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE at the school, but go directly to the authorities, aka, the police. If in fact RVO has been meeting underaged kids in private rooms, without their parent's knowledge, and this has been given the nod by the principle at CCHS, this is in fact, illegal, and the current leadership at CCHS is broken (potentially by design). This needs to be reported to the appropriate public authorities. That's good advice; thank you!
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Post by Feminist on Jul 16, 2021 23:41:10 GMT
Maybe if they like to read, you could mention some “really interesting books” in a conversation. Educated & Unfollow are two that pop into mind right now. Unfollow might even seem to really hit home to a questioning PR. I have heard of those; I plan to read them in the near future. Thanks for the further motivation to do so. You won’t be disappointed
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