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Post by freefromprc on Sept 10, 2016 5:51:29 GMT
Freefromprc: I agree that I have little experience in other churches. In the end, I know what I believe and that is what we are here to discuss. As I stated earlier, I am more than willing to consider switching churches in the event that another church is revealed to have purer preaching. Do you feel that is a fair course of action? I am aware that I am dealing with people who aren't amateurs. I tried to make the point in the OP I'm not going to make statements for the PRC or act like I'm some expert, I'm just here to share my beliefs and experiences. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. If you ask me to make a statement on behalf of the PRC, then I'm going to give you a link to what the PRC says. I'm just trying to answer the questions you ask to the best of my ability. If you aren't pleased with an answer, tell me why and I'll try and make it better. I do not agree with your assertion that I disagree with the Belgic Confession. Here are my arguments. BC 28. The article states "We believe, since this holy congregation is an assembly of those who are saved, and that out of it there is no salvation". Clearly an assembly refers to a local congregation. If you would like to have the wording changed to make this say something else, go to your consistory, then classis, then synod, and after about two years you will find that you will not be heard, or turned down because of a paperwork technicality. An assembly does not refer to a universal catholic church, it refers to a local congregation. This is not stating that there are none saved outside of the PRC, or outside of some physical church. The key to understanding that is this: in Article 27, "this holy congregation" is defined as the "one catholic or universal Church". It goes on to state "This Church hath been from the beginning of the world, and will be to the end thereof". Because of those statements, it seems clear that the Belgic Confession is using the words "this holy congregation" to mean the True Church. You might notice that church is capitalized in many places. When church is capitalized, it means the True Church. When church is in lower case, it refers to the instituted church. Do you think I have interpreted the BC correctly here? BC 28 Again, Church here is capitalized meaning the True Church. We are to live separate from the world, or the false church. Agreed? BC 29 I disagree that the PRC holds their ordinances above the word of God. They believe the ordinances are important, but certainly not infallible or more important than the Word of God. If you believe they do, please provide some proof. Note: I responded to your examples contained in your second post below, but I wanted to keep the structure of my response in the same order as your post for clarity's sake. See below.BC 29 The True and False Church are easy to distinguish from one another. I already quoted the marks of the True Church. As I stated previously, the True Church is not a physical church or denomination. Therefore, I cannot list physical churches/denominations as being true or false and think it would be foolish to do so. Do you agree with the argument I have presented here? Not at all. The word easily means: without difficulty or effort....or...without doubt. It is ridiculous that the Belgic Confession uses this word in this article. It speaks to the arrogance of the authors who, even though were qualified and capable men, were overwhelmed by their own sense of theological astuteness. They use the word to belittle those who struggle for truth (such as the Bereans). It seems that the same arrogance plagues the PRC leaders, especial Dave Engelsma, Herman Hanko and the rest of those proud PRC leaders. I would hate to be in their shoes in the end. Can you imagine Christ saying....why were you not patient with my people? My people struggle to find truth. Maybe Dave will say, read the BC...it says easily right there!I do believe that members of the PRC should treat non members differently in that we know that there is a difference of belief there, and we have a duty to witness about our beliefs when appropriate. Why should non members be treated differantly? Are you suggesting that because they are not PRC they shoudl be treated differantly? If so, is this becasue you also believe that the PRC is the ONLY true church? It appears you actually do believe this and do not even realise it. I have been there, I understand! However, it is in no way a license to treat someone unfairly, or as if they are a lesser person. I think it is especially important to talk with those people about the reasons for their departure - they may have something very important to say about why they left that could alert us to something wrong with the church or just simply something we need to learn from. No one is ever finished learning all there is to learn about the Bible. Agreed? Yes agreed however, the PRC would not agree with what you just said as is evident by over 200 members on this site who have been and continue to be mistreated by family and previous friends in your organization.I believe the paragraph that starts "For what it's worth" is covered by my explanation of your quotes from art 28. If not, we can hash that out. I agree there is salvation outside of the PRC and I believe the BC states that as well. Show me where the BC states that there is salvation outside of the True church (I originally said PRC, but now I say 'true church' hoping you will add to the true church list.)
List of True Churches:
1. PRC 2. 3.
4. 5.
6.
7. 8.
Next I would like to expand on the 4 points made in your second post, as I disagree with your statement that the PRC holds its ordinances higher than God: 1. Preaching using the HC as a guide is preaching on the Bible. I don't feel that requiring that the HC be used as a guide for what to preach on regularly so as to review its doctrines annually is not ascribing more power to church ordinances than to the Bible. I sense you are going to disagree with that statement, but this is the last bit of my writing that I'm getting to for the night and I'm running out of steam. I would like to revisit this later. A minister will be disbarred if he refuses to preach using the HC. That is complete garbage and NOT biblical. It most definitely is an ordinance of man, and if you disagree, show me a verse from scripture requiring a minister to use the HC - start with Timothy, and Titus for a little head start. 2. It is a command from God to train your child in the way you believe. By sending them to a Christian or public school with different teachings, you are not following that command. Do you have any counter arguments for this point? The Bible requires parents to train their children, not some college grad with a membership in the PRC. Mitch Dick lost his career in the PRC because he decided to TEACH HIS OWN CHILDREN! It is also not only the right, but the obligation of parents to see to it that their children are taught the way they see fit. The PRC has NO right to add to the requirements of elder or deacon that they use the PR school. This is an ordinance of man, and it is held higher than the ordinances of God by the PRC.3. It is a command from God to obey authority as long as doing so wouldn't cause you to sin and not usurp them. Unions attempt to do exactly that - force an employer to do things he/she does not wish to do. Often the motive of unions can be good, but the way they go about it is bad. If one is unhappy in their workplace, they should ask their boss and if their boss disagrees find a new job or learn to be content with the place they are at currently. It is a sin for an employee to force the hand of those in authority over them. Here is another misconception of the PRC. The PRC says that employers and employees are to be viewed as Masters and Slaves (servants). This is simply not the case. The employer buys labor or a service from the employee, the employee sells his/her services to the employer. It is an agreement. If the employee does not agree with his wage, he can quit. Or, he can higher someone to manage his employment. If the employer is not satisfied with employee, he can let him go. It is simply an agreement, one selling a service, one purchasing a service. It has nothing to do with authority. Comparing it to indentured servants or slaves is not correct. Another thing that the PRC indoctrinated us on. It took a long time for me to figure that out. BTW, I can't stand labor unions, not for any reason other than i don't think they help anyone.4. If people are shunned for leaving the PRC, the shunners are sinning and will have to answer for that. I believe I covered this up above as well. Shunning is alive and well in the PRC, don't just listen to what I am writing, read this site. Shunning is how the PRC keeps its members in line. It is a bully mentality that is also a characteristic of a cult."The BC teaches to shun non members". Should be up above in the BC section. I really appreciate everything you have brought to me freefromprc and am anxious to hear your responses! I'm sure you'll have a lot more things for me to spend time studying! This is really why I think it's absolutely silly that some people would think it's necessary to shun those who leave the PRC. I think this is a conversation that will be edifying for the both of us even if we aren't able to come to agreement on anything. It pushes us to think about what we believe and why we believe it, and I thank you for that opportunity. I sense two things from you and I am not sure which one is accurate. Either you believe you are charismatic enough to come here and convince people that the PRC is not as bad as what people have said, or that you truly are trying to find the truth about your organization. I hope it is the latter. I suspect you are yet in your twenties, if so i have spent two of your lifetimes in the PRC and was completely immersed at very high levels. I can only suggest that you investigate with very open eyes the 'church' you are part of. Anonuser
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seeker
Seminary Student
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Post by seeker on Sept 10, 2016 6:11:06 GMT
a - yes he is. but that does not mean that being brought up pr is god leading. maybe god left you there. muslims bring up new muslims. catholics bring up catholics. pr bring up pr If you believe that God is omnipotent, then you should also believe God has the power to lead his children to a church by having them born into it. I agree that there is a large ratio of internal to external growth in the PRC. However, I don't think that makes their teachings right or wrong. your point b explains that you are indoctrinated. you seem to only know what the prc taught you. no cult member believes they are in a cult.......until they leave By the definition of indoctrination, I am not indoctrinated. Indoctrination is being unable to think critically.
Are you trying to say I am in a cult? Please provide proof that the PRC is a cult.c - maybe this is a stat you should know. if you believe god leads the pr there, why does the church only grow internally Why didn't you answer my question?d - you said you have not spent time in other churches. the amish do not either, yet they are convinced they are right I have spent minimal time in other churches. My immediate family, who I trust, had spent years and traveled across the United States trying to find a church that taught what they believed. They believed the same things as the PRC before they were in the PRC, but simply had no luck finding a church that taught exactly what they believed before that point. What do you think about that? i am not trying to hurt your feelings. i actually feel bad for the people stuck there. they have no idea. i was there too once Thank you for your concern. It means a lot to me that you care about not hurting my feelings with your questions. I aim to do the same with mine.
i saw your private message and answered it. Attachment Deletedim not good at posting things. its a neat diagram. i think the majority of the prc is indoctrinated from birth. here is a good link to read journeyfree.org/childhood-religious-indoctrination/ the diagram is in there i do not say this in a mean way to you. i was indoctrinated from birth by very conservative family. i know what it is like.
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Post by crusader on Sept 10, 2016 15:08:25 GMT
I noticed that this thread is only visible by members, can it be moved to a place where the general public can read it? I think it would be helpful to prc members who have not created a username.
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Post by freefromprc on Sept 10, 2016 17:02:04 GMT
Freefromprc: I agree that I have little experience in other churches. In the end, I know what I believe and that is what we are here to discuss. As I stated earlier, I am more than willing to consider switching churches in the event that another church is revealed to have purer preaching. Do you feel that is a fair course of action? I am aware that I am dealing with people who aren't amateurs. I tried to make the point in the OP I'm not going to make statements for the PRC or act like I'm some expert, I'm just here to share my beliefs and experiences. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. If you ask me to make a statement on behalf of the PRC, then I'm going to give you a link to what the PRC says. I'm just trying to answer the questions you ask to the best of my ability. If you aren't pleased with an answer, tell me why and I'll try and make it better. I do not agree with your assertion that I disagree with the Belgic Confession. Here are my arguments. BC 28. The article states "We believe, since this holy congregation is an assembly of those who are saved, and that out of it there is no salvation". This is not stating that there are none saved outside of the PRC, or outside of some physical church. The key to understanding that is this: in Article 27, "this holy congregation" is defined as the "one catholic or universal Church". It goes on to state "This Church hath been from the beginning of the world, and will be to the end thereof". Because of those statements, it seems clear that the Belgic Confession is using the words "this holy congregation" to mean the True Church. You might notice that church is capitalized in many places. When church is capitalized, it means the True Church. When church is in lower case, it refers to the instituted church. Do you think I have interpreted the BC correctly here? BC 28 Again, Church here is capitalized meaning the True Church. We are to live separate from the world, or the false church. Agreed? BC 29 I disagree that the PRC holds their ordinances above the word of God. They believe the ordinances are important, but certainly not infallible or more important than the Word of God. If you believe they do, please provide some proof. Note: I responded to your examples contained in your second post below, but I wanted to keep the structure of my response in the same order as your post for clarity's sake. BC 29 The True and False Church are easy to distinguish from one another. I already quoted the marks of the True Church. As I stated previously, the True Church is not a physical church or denomination. Therefore, I cannot list physical churches/denominations as being true or false and think it would be foolish to do so. Do you agree with the argument I have presented here? I do believe that members of the PRC should treat non members differently in that we know that there is a difference of belief there, and we have a duty to witness about our beliefs when appropriate. However, it is in no way a license to treat someone unfairly, or as if they are a lesser person. I think it is especially important to talk with those people about the reasons for their departure - they may have something very important to say about why they left that could alert us to something wrong with the church or just simply something we need to learn from. No one is ever finished learning all there is to learn about the Bible. Agreed? I believe the paragraph that starts "For what it's worth" is covered by my explanation of your quotes from art 28. If not, we can hash that out. I agree there is salvation outside of the PRC and I believe the BC states that as well. Next I would like to expand on the 4 points made in your second post, as I disagree with your statement that the PRC holds its ordinances higher than God: 1. Preaching using the HC as a guide is preaching on the Bible. I don't feel that requiring that the HC be used as a guide for what to preach on regularly so as to review its doctrines annually is not ascribing more power to church ordinances than to the Bible. I sense you are going to disagree with that statement, but this is the last bit of my writing that I'm getting to for the night and I'm running out of steam. I would like to revisit this later. 2. It is a command from God to train your child in the way you believe. By sending them to a Christian or public school with different teachings, you are not following that command. Do you have any counter arguments for this point? 3. It is a command from God to obey authority as long as doing so wouldn't cause you to sin and not usurp them. Unions attempt to do exactly that - force an employer to do things he/she does not wish to do. Often the motive of unions can be good, but the way they go about it is bad. If one is unhappy in their workplace, they should ask their boss and if their boss disagrees find a new job or learn to be content with the place they are at currently. It is a sin for an employee to force the hand of those in authority over them. 4. If people are shunned for leaving the PRC, the shunners are sinning and will have to answer for that. I believe I covered this up above as well. "The BC teaches to shun non members". Should be up above in the BC section. I really appreciate everything you have brought to me freefromprc and am anxious to hear your responses! I'm sure you'll have a lot more things for me to spend time studying! This is really why I think it's absolutely silly that some people would think it's necessary to shun those who leave the PRC. I think this is a conversation that will be edifying for the both of us even if we aren't able to come to agreement on anything. It pushes us to think about what we believe and why we believe it, and I thank you for that opportunity. I am pretty sure someone else posted this YouTube elsewhere on the site, but this is a 6 minute little video you should at least watch. It explains that requiring membership means that salvation requires a work on our part. Dave Engelsma and his book are discussed. It is clear simple and concise.
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Post by freefromprc on Sept 10, 2016 19:42:43 GMT
That link seeker posted is interesting. Here is an excerpt: "In effect, the indoctrination of a child with immature cognitive abilities in the helpless context of a family is an abuse of power. The child has no perspective and no choice but to cooperate in order to survive. The messages are received and embedded in the brain while certain areas of brain development are repressed through lack of stimulation, chief of which is critical thinking. This, combined with accepting the teaching that one is unable to trust one’s own thoughts, and the abject fear of terrifying consequences, completes the trap. Even as the child gets older, there are social forces in place to enforce these dynamics and the circular reasoning can continue on, making the child feel highly disturbed but not have any idea why.
The typical pattern is for a person to keep trying harder to make the religion work because the doctrine always makes the individual at fault. Many describe a pattern of highs and extreme lows much like the mind-twisting cycle of abuse in domestic violence. The victim is always to blame and escape is extremely difficult because there is periodic emotional relief but no overall perspective. The attribution for the pain is always put on the victim’s bad behavior. For Christians, even when they are living exemplary lives and still miserable, they are charged with searching themselves for “secret sin” to explain the problem. It’s no wonder there is so much depression and “feeling crazy” when this mental abuse is happening......"Read more here: journeyfree.org/childhood-religious-indoctrination/
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 3:05:58 GMT
I will get very graphic if I need to - there is a young woman who was a mother to young children and the father beat the hell out of his kids and wife... The pastor asked her what she was Doing wrong to her husband because she probably deserved to get beat.... The husband had a temper .... I would know I grew up with him. The pastor and consistory stood up for the husband.... Yes!!! True... Even when the kids would show up to school with bruises from that husband....and to make matters worse... The pastor told her is was wrong of her to hold back sex from her husband and that was a sin... Dude. I went to the PR schools in MI and never even heard of anything like this in our churches until I came to this site. By the way, with a quick search there are two threads with "abuse" in the title: exprc.freeforums.net/thread/47/raising-children-form-child-abuseexprc.freeforums.net/thread/303/emotional-abuse-local-church-womenWould anyone suggest any others specifically for this topic? 3. It is a command from God to obey authority as long as doing so wouldn't cause you to sin and not usurp them. Unions attempt to do exactly that - force an employer to do things he/she does not wish to do. Often the motive of unions can be good, but the way they go about it is bad. If one is unhappy in their workplace, they should ask their boss and if their boss disagrees find a new job or learn to be content with the place they are at currently. It is a sin for an employee to force the hand of those in authority over them. Here is another misconception of the PRC. The PRC says that employers and employees are to be viewed as Masters and Slaves (servants). This is simply not the case. The employer buys labor or a service from the employee, the employee sells his/her services to the employer. It is an agreement. If the employee does not agree with his wage, he can quit. Or, he can higher someone to manage his employment. If the employer is not satisfied with employee, he can let him go. It is simply an agreement, one selling a service, one purchasing a service. It has nothing to do with authority. Comparing it to indentured servants or slaves is not correct. Another thing that the PRC indoctrinated us on. It took a long time for me to figure that out. BTW, I can't stand labor unions, not for any reason other than i don't think they help anyone.This one always bugged me. I had a friend (and other PRs) who would try to tell me we have this duty to our boss's and shouldn't just quit because we want to. Never could figure out how to get out of their logic. Made me feel really bad whenever I even had thoughts of quitting, and the guilt grew after I quit. Thanks a lot for this. Anyway, anonuser, I just wanted to let you know these guys are really trying to help you (for the most part). I remember when I first browsed this site and finally posted they seemed so intimidating and like they just wanted to mock the PRC at first, but when I started seeing comments some posted in other threads, my perception totally changed. Freefromprc especially(there are others, his jumped out) has hinted several times at how he feels he wasted his life in PRC, he feels he was in a cult. Just try to imagine what it is like for someone to look back at their life and think it was a complete waste. I don't know that kind of stood out at me so I thought I would mention it. Also, if you are looking for proof for every statement, good luck. That would be kind of like if someone was telling you a story and you asked for documented proof for the events or to talk to the people directly before you believed it. I'm not saying you have to believe everything on here, but most of it is more experience or perception of PRC. You either believe it or you don't, usually based on experience and perception. Just be open-minded and willing to look into the things they tell you in other places on the forum, and even people in real life if you happen to know anyone it would work to talk to about. They probably are not going to try to prove everything to every new member that challenges them, that is why they tell you to read the other threads here.
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Post by freefromprc on Sept 12, 2016 13:47:53 GMT
I will get very graphic if I need to - there is a young woman who was a mother to young children and the father beat the hell out of his kids and wife... The pastor asked her what she was Doing wrong to her husband because she probably deserved to get beat.... The husband had a temper .... I would know I grew up with him. The pastor and consistory stood up for the husband.... Yes!!! True... Even when the kids would show up to school with bruises from that husband....and to make matters worse... The pastor told her is was wrong of her to hold back sex from her husband and that was a sin... Dude. I went to the PR schools in MI and never even heard of anything like this in our churches until I came to this site. By the way, with a quick search there are two threads with "abuse" in the title: exprc.freeforums.net/thread/47/raising-children-form-child-abuseexprc.freeforums.net/thread/303/emotional-abuse-local-church-womenWould anyone suggest any others specifically for this topic? 3. It is a command from God to obey authority as long as doing so wouldn't cause you to sin and not usurp them. Unions attempt to do exactly that - force an employer to do things he/she does not wish to do. Often the motive of unions can be good, but the way they go about it is bad. If one is unhappy in their workplace, they should ask their boss and if their boss disagrees find a new job or learn to be content with the place they are at currently. It is a sin for an employee to force the hand of those in authority over them. Here is another misconception of the PRC. The PRC says that employers and employees are to be viewed as Masters and Slaves (servants). This is simply not the case. The employer buys labor or a service from the employee, the employee sells his/her services to the employer. It is an agreement. If the employee does not agree with his wage, he can quit. Or, he can higher someone to manage his employment. If the employer is not satisfied with employee, he can let him go. It is simply an agreement, one selling a service, one purchasing a service. It has nothing to do with authority. Comparing it to indentured servants or slaves is not correct. Another thing that the PRC indoctrinated us on. It took a long time for me to figure that out. BTW, I can't stand labor unions, not for any reason other than i don't think they help anyone.This one always bugged me. I had a friend (and other PRs) who would try to tell me we have this duty to our boss's and shouldn't just quit because we want to. Never could figure out how to get out of their logic. Made me feel really bad whenever I even had thoughts of quitting, and the guilt grew after I quit. Thanks a lot for this. Anyway, anonuser, I just wanted to let you know these guys are really trying to help you (for the most part). I remember when I first browsed this site and finally posted they seemed so intimidating and like they just wanted to mock the PRC at first, but when I started seeing comments some posted in other threads, my perception totally changed. Freefromprc especially(there are others, his jumped out) has hinted several times at how he feels he wasted his life in PRC, he feels he was in a cult. Just try to imagine what it is like for someone to look back at their life and think it was a complete waste. I don't know that kind of stood out at me so I thought I would mention it. Also, if you are looking for proof for every statement, good luck. That would be kind of like if someone was telling you a story and you asked for documented proof for the events or to talk to the people directly before you believed it. I'm not saying you have to believe everything on here, but most of it is more experience or perception of PRC. You either believe it or you don't, usually based on experience and perception. Just be open-minded and willing to look into the things they tell you in other places on the forum, and even people in real life if you happen to know anyone it would work to talk to about. They probably are not going to try to prove everything to every new member that challenges them, that is why they tell you to read the other threads here. Here are some more links, the search tool on the site works pretty good, there are a lot of posts out there that do not use the word abuse, but the content is clearly the same type of mistreatment: exprc.freeforums.net/post/4185/threadexprc.freeforums.net/post/3298/threadexprc.freeforums.net/post/2273/threadexprc.freeforums.net/post/639/threadAnd yes, you are correct in your observation archimedes, my life has truly been formed by this church. Although there are a few things I appreciate from it, such as the value of family, the very extensive knowledge of the Bible, the importance of organized thinking to name a few, the negative results of being a lifetime member are overwhelming. The mental scars are permanent. The best you can do is try to unwind and reprogram the parts of your brain that have been bleached out by this church. It is easy to view this site as a place to throw darts at the PRC, and yes, there are times when people including myself are vindictive and maybe bitter toward this organization. However, for the most part, what drives me is the complete sorrow that I have family there, and that I ALONE AM RESPONSIBLE for training them to be there. Anonuser said that children who grow up there and become members were led there by God. It is simply blindness that can make a statement like that. My children from infants were trained 24/7 to be PERFECT PR people. I was very very good at it. And it worked. And it is the saddest thing that I could have ever done to them. Some day I assume they will find out who I am on this site, and maybe when they see the trap they are, and understand that I too was simply training them as the cult required, will forgive me for setting them up there. Anyone who is there and reads this site should just try to get through the vindictiveness and sarcasm, and understand that the effect of being cut off from family and 'friends', having your very own children who you love more than anything, view you as a heathen will cause a person to burn with rage, and write things that come out in a cynical way. You do truly feel like a caged animal at times, powerless to help the ones you love. But what happens there is real. It is subtle. It is a very slow steady training starting from birth. Anyone who thinks they can resist it is a fool. Anyone who believes it is God leading, and call it internal growth - using the exact words they were trained to use, is simply using a thought process that they have been indoctrinated with and cannot resist. Anyone who was trained from birth there and thinks they are thinking clearly are fooling themselves. Unfortunately, the training is so thorough it is almost hopeless to try to bring these things to light. At least now, when people have a moment of reflection, and maybe a fleeting question in their mind, they have a place to go to to anonymously discuss what is going on. It is more than I had for sure. Trying to leave, thinking you are the only one suspecting there is a problem, is almost impossible. Now with this site, people can see that there are plenty of people who have left with these same concerns. Once out, it becomes crystal clear. It actually creates great sadness and bitterness, but time helps.
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Post by freefromprc on Sept 12, 2016 13:57:43 GMT
Seriously, ask me anything. I am not here to claim I am an authority on what the PRC teaches, although I am a member, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say to me. My main interest here is that I feel I, as well as others in the church, am being misrepresented in the comments. Please do not misinterpret me as saying that I don't believe your stories listed elsewhere on the forum, because I know very well that bad people exist within our congregations. I simply feel that sometimes a blanket statement is used for all members of these churches when it isn't appropriate. And so, allow me to defend myself and my beliefs to you. All I want is to have a fair debate that represents both sides of our arguments well. I am willing to reveal personal details to a certain extent, although I do wish to remain anonymous so some questions may go unanswered. I will do the best I can to paint an accurate picture of myself and my beliefs without compromising that anonymity. Also saddens me that someone like anonuser came here telling themselves they were here with an open mind, yet had no interest at all in learning anything. Came here ready to defend, not to learn. This is the exact problem with this organization. They have perfected the art of brainwashing. So much so that a young lady like anonuser comes here, four years of college education, apparently intelligent, and cannot see the trap she is in. And she truly believes she has an open mind. She uses logical thought processes, organised debating techniques, clear concise intelligent boundaries for discussion, clearly well trained by the PRC. Unfortunately, she is like a garden house. Water comes out, nothing goes in. Anyone who spent time in the PRC knows exactly how the discussion would go. We already know all of the defenses, it is tiring to repeatedly debate them. But when they find themselves debating with people who understand the PRC, they vanish back into their bubble, pull the curtains back over the windows, and live on thinking they are free. Been there. It will take a heatbreak, some sort of devastation in their lives to break them from the spell they are under. So sad.
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Post by wallflower on Sept 12, 2016 15:23:29 GMT
Seriously, ask me anything. I am not here to claim I am an authority on what the PRC teaches, although I am a member, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say to me. My main interest here is that I feel I, as well as others in the church, am being misrepresented in the comments. Please do not misinterpret me as saying that I don't believe your stories listed elsewhere on the forum, because I know very well that bad people exist within our congregations. I simply feel that sometimes a blanket statement is used for all members of these churches when it isn't appropriate. And so, allow me to defend myself and my beliefs to you. All I want is to have a fair debate that represents both sides of our arguments well. I am willing to reveal personal details to a certain extent, although I do wish to remain anonymous so some questions may go unanswered. I will do the best I can to paint an accurate picture of myself and my beliefs without compromising that anonymity. Also saddens me that someone like anonuser came here telling themselves they were here with an open mind, yet had no interest at all in learning anything. Came here ready to defend, not to learn. This is the exact problem with this organization. They have perfected the art of brainwashing. So much so that a young lady like anonuser comes here, four years of college education, apparently intelligent, and cannot see the trap she is in. And she truly believes she has an open mind. She uses logical thought processes, organised debating techniques, clear concise intelligent boundaries for discussion, clearly well trained by the PRC. Unfortunately, she is like a garden house. Water comes out, nothing goes in. Anyone who spent time in the PRC knows exactly how the discussion would go. We already know all of the defenses, it is tiring to repeatedly debate them. But when they find themselves debating with people who understand the PRC, they vanish back into their bubble, pull the curtains back over the windows, and live on thinking they are free. Been there. It will take a heatbreak, some sort of devastation in their lives to break them from the spell they are under. So sad. I just read this thread. There's not an ounce of gospel for what Christ has done for anonuser. Here she had the perfect chance to witness to us all. Reason #1 why I left this summer!
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Post by Admin on Sept 12, 2016 16:00:01 GMT
I noticed that this thread is only visible by members, can it be moved to a place where the general public can read it? I think it would be helpful to prc members who have not created a username. Good idea! ....Done! The Admin Team
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 17:40:22 GMT
Hi anonuser. Why are you coming here to discuss your beliefs anonymously if you are a PR. Isn't your confession of faith that your words and actions represent Jesus and the body of believers? I don't think you really love the PRC like you claim or you wouldn't come here to discuss your beliefs with people that don't confess their faith as the pr church does. As a member of that church you DO represent them by what you say here. Did you consult with your consistory before you posted here?
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Post by cannalily on Sept 12, 2016 19:58:09 GMT
Hi anonuser. Why are you coming here to discuss your beliefs anonymously if you are a PR. Isn't your confession of faith that your words and actions represent Jesus and the body of believers? I don't think you really love the PRC like you claim or you wouldn't come here to discuss your beliefs with people that don't confess their faith as the pr church does. As a member of that church you DO represent them by what you say here. Did you consult with your consistory before you posted here? Their "confession of faith" is really based on outward appearance. They are more than willing to spout their real opinion provided that the other members don't identify them. If you read this thread, this person is so infatuated with staying anonymous so that no one could trace her back. If you're so strong in what you believe, putting on the "armor of God", what is there really to fear? Unless of course, they are doubting...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 21:12:47 GMT
I'm sure if someone at work were to ask her what church she goes too and what they believe, it would be the best kept secret at that business.
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Post by freefromprc on Sept 13, 2016 1:31:37 GMT
I'm sure if someone at work were to ask her what church she goes too and what they believe, it would be the best kept secret at that business. Clearly you have been there. Amazing how we all have had similar experiences!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 0:56:43 GMT
Why do you think you and other PR's are being misrepresented? Didn't the Holy Spirit lead you to this place to debate people here (some who admitted they pray for the destruction of the Protestant Reformed Church) or did you trip on the link like it was a stumbling block? Is it possible your eyes are being opened to the truth?
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