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Post by searchingbeliever on May 11, 2020 17:03:19 GMT
Hello! Wondering if anyone else wanted to talk about/share on anything that they started to see differently once they started to attend churches outside the PRC.
One big one for me is the way the PRC talks about salvation with election and reprobation. Now I do not believe that every one is going to heaven, or that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, BUT what I have found in the preaching at both Bible Churches and CRC to be more like what seems to be the actual concepts presented in the Bible. From what I’ve newly experienced in other churches, there is so much more of a focus on witnessing and helping share the Word of God to the people you come in contact with, rather than the PRC was that seems to focus (from my church upbringing) in who is and who isn’t going to be in heaven. It seems to be so much more on those who are the chosen, rather than call we have as Christians to spread the Word, speak of Jesus, live lives that reflect Christ. It feels there is a feeling of exclusivity for those who “have the truth”. And that mindset is SO limiting when comes to what the child of God is called to do, love God and love the neighbor. If we are so focused on people’s present actions and words, we might categorize them as “reprobate”, rather than even attempting to witness or have a conversation that might be a planted seed that God will use to bring them to Him.
Why is the focus so much to categorize as elect or reprobate if we cannot truly know the heart?
Thoughts?!
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Post by pemptyr on May 11, 2020 23:18:04 GMT
Hello! Wondering if anyone else wanted to talk about/share on anything that they started to see differently once they started to attend churches outside the PRC. One big one for me is the way the PRC talks about salvation with election and reprobation. Now I do not believe that every one is going to heaven, or that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, BUT what I have found in the preaching at both Bible Churches and CRC to be more like what seems to be the actual concepts presented in the Bible. From what I’ve newly experienced in other churches, there is so much more of a focus on witnessing and helping share the Word of God to the people you come in contact with, rather than the PRC was that seems to focus (from my church upbringing) in who is and who isn’t going to be in heaven. It seems to be so much more on those who are the chosen, rather than call we have as Christians to spread the Word, speak of Jesus, live lives that reflect Christ. It feels there is a feeling of exclusivity for those who “have the truth”. And that mindset is SO limiting when comes to what the child of God is called to do, love God and love the neighbor. If we are so focused on people’s present actions and words, we might categorize them as “reprobate”, rather than even attempting to witness or have a conversation that might be a planted seed that God will use to bring them to Him. Why is the focus so much to categorize as elect or reprobate if we cannot truly know the heart? Thoughts?! I've seen where experts talk about something like quantum computing and reading that stuff I wonder if the experts have any idea what concepts they are talking about. It's the same way I feel about some of the prc doctrines, like for example when they are talking about your not able to save yourself but you have to have the right way to God |
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Post by throwaway2018 on May 12, 2020 14:16:08 GMT
Hello! Wondering if anyone else wanted to talk about/share on anything that they started to see differently once they started to attend churches outside the PRC. One big one for me is the way the PRC talks about salvation with election and reprobation. Now I do not believe that every one is going to heaven, or that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, BUT what I have found in the preaching at both Bible Churches and CRC to be more like what seems to be the actual concepts presented in the Bible. From what I’ve newly experienced in other churches, there is so much more of a focus on witnessing and helping share the Word of God to the people you come in contact with, rather than the PRC was that seems to focus (from my church upbringing) in who is and who isn’t going to be in heaven. It seems to be so much more on those who are the chosen, rather than call we have as Christians to spread the Word, speak of Jesus, live lives that reflect Christ. It feels there is a feeling of exclusivity for those who “have the truth”. And that mindset is SO limiting when comes to what the child of God is called to do, love God and love the neighbor. If we are so focused on people’s present actions and words, we might categorize them as “reprobate”, rather than even attempting to witness or have a conversation that might be a planted seed that God will use to bring them to Him. Why is the focus so much to categorize as elect or reprobate if we cannot truly know the heart? Thoughts?! My biggest change from PRC to exPRC was along those same lines - I found that once I discarded the extreme Calvinistic doctrine that I believed when I was PR, I became much more empathetic. I cared a lot more about other people, too. I can't say that it was entirely the doctrines fault, it was also my own, but I think that when you wholeheartedly believe that some people are destined for Hell and others for heaven and absolutely nothing can change that you don't really care about other people as much. I kinda felt it was pointless to care about people who were going to hell because it's not like God cares about them either. Obviously I felt I had no way of knowing who was going to heaven or hell for certain, but it does affect your behavior towards others anyways. I think it's also partially part of the whole "in the world but not of the world" brainwashing. You're constantly reinforced to believe that other people are not a part of your ingroup, and you should not act as if they are. It pushes extreme tribalism and encourages you to feel no guilt over ignoring the poor, sick, homeless, disabled, etc. outside of your group. You should first make sure that everyone in your group can afford to send their kids to private school before you bother with those people. How ridiculously privileged of a notion is that? That the poor in your group are the ones who can't quite afford private schooling? |
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Post by cannalily on May 12, 2020 14:57:25 GMT
Hello! Wondering if anyone else wanted to talk about/share on anything that they started to see differently once they started to attend churches outside the PRC. One big one for me is the way the PRC talks about salvation with election and reprobation. Now I do not believe that every one is going to heaven, or that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, BUT what I have found in the preaching at both Bible Churches and CRC to be more like what seems to be the actual concepts presented in the Bible. From what I’ve newly experienced in other churches, there is so much more of a focus on witnessing and helping share the Word of God to the people you come in contact with, rather than the PRC was that seems to focus (from my church upbringing) in who is and who isn’t going to be in heaven. It seems to be so much more on those who are the chosen, rather than call we have as Christians to spread the Word, speak of Jesus, live lives that reflect Christ. It feels there is a feeling of exclusivity for those who “have the truth”. And that mindset is SO limiting when comes to what the child of God is called to do, love God and love the neighbor. If we are so focused on people’s present actions and words, we might categorize them as “reprobate”, rather than even attempting to witness or have a conversation that might be a planted seed that God will use to bring them to Him. Why is the focus so much to categorize as elect or reprobate if we cannot truly know the heart? Thoughts?! My thoughts have changed dramatically. With so many things in life I think that this cult has duped people into a false belief. There is so much more to know, and with that so many more questions. Perhaps this is why they have such a closed community, because once you get out, you realize that NOTHING is black and white. The bible - too many interpretations, conflicts, and overall BS about how it's been put together. (Did you hear recently that even the "found manuscripts" as part of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Israel's museum have been now found out to be fraud?) The bible stories - just way to simplistic for the concept - Noah's arc, for example...all the animals? Really? Just BS. I think that the people who actually told these stories are simplistic as well. Because of this closed "learning", you were unable to actually ask real questions, and then as you get older, frowned upon when you "thought out of the box". Looking back, I'm a little pissed that I wasn't told the truth sooner. And I'm willing to sit down with any of the ministers and go head to head - the problem of course, is that many haven't traveled the world themselves, so they have no clue. They get stuck in a little back room called seminary, pumped full of PRC goo. Once pumped full of goo, they get put on an "esteemed pedestal" for all the cult members to revere. It's exactly why this site has been labeled "dangerous" for the "believer". So yeah, my thoughts have changed. |
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Post by pemptyr on May 12, 2020 16:05:29 GMT
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Post by throwaway2018 on May 12, 2020 18:29:53 GMT
Hello! Wondering if anyone else wanted to talk about/share on anything that they started to see differently once they started to attend churches outside the PRC. One big one for me is the way the PRC talks about salvation with election and reprobation. Now I do not believe that every one is going to heaven, or that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, BUT what I have found in the preaching at both Bible Churches and CRC to be more like what seems to be the actual concepts presented in the Bible. From what I’ve newly experienced in other churches, there is so much more of a focus on witnessing and helping share the Word of God to the people you come in contact with, rather than the PRC was that seems to focus (from my church upbringing) in who is and who isn’t going to be in heaven. It seems to be so much more on those who are the chosen, rather than call we have as Christians to spread the Word, speak of Jesus, live lives that reflect Christ. It feels there is a feeling of exclusivity for those who “have the truth”. And that mindset is SO limiting when comes to what the child of God is called to do, love God and love the neighbor. If we are so focused on people’s present actions and words, we might categorize them as “reprobate”, rather than even attempting to witness or have a conversation that might be a planted seed that God will use to bring them to Him. Why is the focus so much to categorize as elect or reprobate if we cannot truly know the heart? Thoughts?! My thoughts have changed dramatically. With so many things in life I think that this cult has duped people into a false belief. There is so much more to know, and with that so many more questions. Perhaps this is why they have such a closed community, because once you get out, you realize that NOTHING is black and white. The bible - too many interpretations, conflicts, and overall BS about how it's been put together. (Did you hear recently that even the "found manuscripts" as part of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Israel's museum have been now found out to be fraud?) The bible stories - just way to simplistic for the concept - Noah's arc, for example...all the animals? Really? Just BS. I think that the people who actually told these stories are simplistic as well. Because of this closed "learning", you were unable to actually ask real questions, and then as you get older, frowned upon when you "thought out of the box". Looking back, I'm a little pissed that I wasn't told the truth sooner. And I'm willing to sit down with any of the ministers and go head to head - the problem of course, is that many haven't traveled the world themselves, so they have no clue. They get stuck in a little back room called seminary, pumped full of PRC goo. Once pumped full of goo, they get put on an "esteemed pedestal" for all the cult members to revere. It's exactly why this site has been labeled "dangerous" for the "believer". So yeah, my thoughts have changed. This resonates with me a lot. After I left, it became clear to me just how many questions remain. Nothing is as cut and dry as I was lead to believe by everyone in the PRC. It actually made me completely re evaluate how I see knowledge - I no longer have 100% confidence in any of my beliefs because I realized how easy it is to be deluded into 100% believing in something that was false (or if not false, not able to be proven true). I also struggle with feelings of anger over finding out how fragile the PR belief system is. I often feel really upset that I had to discover it for myself and no one else seems to care or get it. I don't know how people can just sit back and assume everything they believe is true without actually examining it, and finding out how many people in the PRC are happy to operate that way really irked me. |
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Post by pemptyr on May 12, 2020 21:05:33 GMT
My thoughts have changed dramatically. With so many things in life I think that this cult has duped people into a false belief. There is so much more to know, and with that so many more questions. Perhaps this is why they have such a closed community, because once you get out, you realize that NOTHING is black and white. The bible - too many interpretations, conflicts, and overall BS about how it's been put together. (Did you hear recently that even the "found manuscripts" as part of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Israel's museum have been now found out to be fraud?) The bible stories - just way to simplistic for the concept - Noah's arc, for example...all the animals? Really? Just BS. I think that the people who actually told these stories are simplistic as well. Because of this closed "learning", you were unable to actually ask real questions, and then as you get older, frowned upon when you "thought out of the box". Looking back, I'm a little pissed that I wasn't told the truth sooner. And I'm willing to sit down with any of the ministers and go head to head - the problem of course, is that many haven't traveled the world themselves, so they have no clue. They get stuck in a little back room called seminary, pumped full of PRC goo. Once pumped full of goo, they get put on an "esteemed pedestal" for all the cult members to revere. It's exactly why this site has been labeled "dangerous" for the "believer". So yeah, my thoughts have changed. This resonates with me a lot. After I left, it became clear to me just how many questions remain. Nothing is as cut and dry as I was lead to believe by everyone in the PRC. It actually made me completely re evaluate how I see knowledge - I no longer have 100% confidence in any of my beliefs because I realized how easy it is to be deluded into 100% believing in something that was false (or if not false, not able to be proven true). I also struggle with feelings of anger over finding out how fragile the PR belief system is. I often feel really upset that I had to discover it for myself and no one else seems to care or get it. I don't know how people can just sit back and assume everything they believe is true without actually examining it, and finding out how many people in the PRC are happy to operate that way really irked me. You talk about the belief system are you talking about believing in God or is it more about what you said in an earlier post about believing that only certain people are saved and everyone else is going to hell? Just certain doctrines? |
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Post by questioneverything on May 13, 2020 0:18:57 GMT
My thoughts have changed dramatically. With so many things in life I think that this cult has duped people into a false belief. There is so much more to know, and with that so many more questions. Perhaps this is why they have such a closed community, because once you get out, you realize that NOTHING is black and white. The bible - too many interpretations, conflicts, and overall BS about how it's been put together. (Did you hear recently that even the "found manuscripts" as part of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" in Israel's museum have been now found out to be fraud?) The bible stories - just way to simplistic for the concept - Noah's arc, for example...all the animals? Really? Just BS. I think that the people who actually told these stories are simplistic as well. Because of this closed "learning", you were unable to actually ask real questions, and then as you get older, frowned upon when you "thought out of the box". Looking back, I'm a little pissed that I wasn't told the truth sooner. And I'm willing to sit down with any of the ministers and go head to head - the problem of course, is that many haven't traveled the world themselves, so they have no clue. They get stuck in a little back room called seminary, pumped full of PRC goo. Once pumped full of goo, they get put on an "esteemed pedestal" for all the cult members to revere. It's exactly why this site has been labeled "dangerous" for the "believer". So yeah, my thoughts have changed. This resonates with me a lot. After I left, it became clear to me just how many questions remain. Nothing is as cut and dry as I was lead to believe by everyone in the PRC. It actually made me completely re evaluate how I see knowledge - I no longer have 100% confidence in any of my beliefs because I realized how easy it is to be deluded into 100% believing in something that was false (or if not false, not able to be proven true). I also struggle with feelings of anger over finding out how fragile the PR belief system is. I often feel really upset that I had to discover it for myself and no one else seems to care or get it. I don't know how people can just sit back and assume everything they believe is true without actually examining it, and finding out how many people in the PRC are happy to operate that way really irked me. |
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Post by throwaway2018 on May 13, 2020 14:04:26 GMT
This resonates with me a lot. After I left, it became clear to me just how many questions remain. Nothing is as cut and dry as I was lead to believe by everyone in the PRC. It actually made me completely re evaluate how I see knowledge - I no longer have 100% confidence in any of my beliefs because I realized how easy it is to be deluded into 100% believing in something that was false (or if not false, not able to be proven true). I also struggle with feelings of anger over finding out how fragile the PR belief system is. I often feel really upset that I had to discover it for myself and no one else seems to care or get it. I don't know how people can just sit back and assume everything they believe is true without actually examining it, and finding out how many people in the PRC are happy to operate that way really irked me. You talk about the belief system are you talking about believing in God or is it more about what you said in an earlier post about believing that only certain people are saved and everyone else is going to hell? Just certain doctrines? The fragility of the PR belief system lies in how confident they are about young earth creationism, Biblical infallibility, a very literal and script interpretation of Biblical passages, etc. Like for example, PRs are 100% confident that the story of Noah's ark happened EXACTLY as it did in the Bible. That is a very fragile belief, because there are a multitude of ways to show that A) the logistics of it are impossible and B) that the Bible contradicts itself on what happened wih the flood anyways. A religious belief system that allows for the story of Noah's ark to have value while still admitting that it didn't happen exactly as it is stated in the Bible is much less fragile. Religious belief in general is not nearly as fragile as the PR specific brand of it. While I don't personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, I don't think more liberal Christianity has the same issues as extreme fundamentalism. |
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Post by pemptyr on May 13, 2020 16:04:46 GMT
You talk about the belief system are you talking about believing in God or is it more about what you said in an earlier post about believing that only certain people are saved and everyone else is going to hell? Just certain doctrines? The fragility of the PR belief system lies in how confident they are about young earth creationism, Biblical infallibility, a very literal and script interpretation of Biblical passages, etc. Like for example, PRs are 100% confident that the story of Noah's ark happened EXACTLY as it did in the Bible. That is a very fragile belief, because there are a multitude of ways to show that A) the logistics of it are impossible and B) that the Bible contradicts itself on what happened wih the flood anyways. A religious belief system that allows for the story of Noah's ark to have value while still admitting that it didn't happen exactly as it is stated in the Bible is much less fragile. Religious belief in general is not nearly as fragile as the PR specific brand of it. While I don't personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, I don't think more liberal Christianity has the same issues as extreme fundamentalism. Thank you |
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Post by cannalily on May 14, 2020 13:44:02 GMT
You talk about the belief system are you talking about believing in God or is it more about what you said in an earlier post about believing that only certain people are saved and everyone else is going to hell? Just certain doctrines? The fragility of the PR belief system lies in how confident they are about young earth creationism, Biblical infallibility, a very literal and script interpretation of Biblical passages, etc. Like for example, PRs are 100% confident that the story of Noah's ark happened EXACTLY as it did in the Bible. That is a very fragile belief, because there are a multitude of ways to show that A) the logistics of it are impossible and B) that the Bible contradicts itself on what happened wih the flood anyways. A religious belief system that allows for the story of Noah's ark to have value while still admitting that it didn't happen exactly as it is stated in the Bible is much less fragile. Religious belief in general is not nearly as fragile as the PR specific brand of it. While I don't personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, I don't think more liberal Christianity has the same issues as extreme fundamentalism. Not to mention the physical impossibility of the "exact reference" in the bible. I mean simple math/space/weight ratios are enough... |
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Post by Redacted :) on Feb 8, 2021 4:02:45 GMT
I will never try to change minds on this site. We're all here for support. I will say for my part though that it's the doctrine of hell, not the PR use of it, that is gross. If hell exists then PR fear tactics make perfect sense. I'd say Eurythphro's Dilemma pretty much wipes the issue clean though.
I changed my beliefs before leaving, which was traumatizing. After leaving, most of my changes have been political. I have moved far too the left on all issues.
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Post by yourstruly5 on Feb 8, 2021 6:17:24 GMT
If the Bible is not truth then what is the basis of faith, PR or not. Grew up on the outside and despised PR thought, judgemental and self righteous. But attacking the PR church with no holding back and without remorse solves nothing. Are we not a body of Christ, saved by HIS blood and brought to HIM by the spirit. Bashing any faith across the board helps no one. We can all glean truth from any faith, but it must be based on scripture. Without faith in the truth of scripture then faith is dead because we have nothing to base it on and this thread doesn't matter and the conversation is over no matter your opinion. It's all based on your interpretation of the scripture, which can be debated to the end of time. If the Bible isn't seen as the TRUTH THEN this conversation doesn't matter and interpreting it doesn't either.
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Post by prnolonger on Feb 8, 2021 16:25:12 GMT
If the Bible is not truth then what is the basis of faith, PR or not. Grew up on the outside and despised PR thought, judgemental and self righteous. But attacking the PR church with no holding back and without remorse solves nothing. Are we not a body of Christ, saved by HIS blood and brought to HIM by the spirit. Bashing any faith across the board helps no one. We can all glean truth from any faith, but it must be based on scripture. Without faith in the truth of scripture then faith is dead because we have nothing to base it on and this thread doesn't matter and the conversation is over no matter your opinion. It's all based on your interpretation of the scripture, which can be debated to the end of time. If the Bible isn't seen as the TRUTH THEN this conversation doesn't matter and interpreting it doesn't either.I mean no offense, and you are welcome to your faith and views, but you can totally be a Christian and believe in philosophical relativism. The statement I highlighted is something a PRC education lays in pretty hard. You'd be hard pressed to get a lot of us to believe that anymore. You can believe that the Bible isn't 100% truth and still have this conversation matter. That statement you made is essentially poison if you're trying to convince an atheist that your views are rational and not just cult-enforced mindset. You can say "well it's true for me" and I would agree. However it's not true for me. And both statements can be correct. Because moral relativism is a better method of describing reality than objective truth. If we go down the objective truth rabbit hole, you will find yourself defending things like murder and genocide as ethically correct, and fast. I just can't hold to that. I refuse it. Here's an example. Deuteronomy 7. It's not the only time genocide is something the OT God commands in the bible, I'm just picking one. If the Bible is objective truth delivered from God, then you must believe that God commands genocide as good. The act of genocide can, depending on circumstance, be good. I refuse that. I don't believe that genocide is an ethically correct thing to do, ever. And if God exists and is good and worthy of praise, then I don't believe He would command anything unethical, let alone genocide. For an example of what a relativist such as myself would believe: Joshua/Moses/Whoever may have believed that God wanted him to commit genocide. I don't believe that's true, though. If God exists, and I have faith that He does, I don't believe that He would ever give a command to commit genocide. You can disagree with that all you like, but I will never, ever deviate from that statement. In my opinion, if God existed and commanded things like genocide, then He wouldn't be worthy of praise - and it's easier to believe He doesn't exist. Bam - you've created an atheist. Actually, more likely you've created an anti-theist. Again, I mean no offense. I only want to illustrate how your opinion is very hostile, and I don't think you realize that it is. |
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Post by questioneverything on Feb 8, 2021 19:56:06 GMT
If the Bible is not truth then what is the basis of faith, PR or not. Grew up on the outside and despised PR thought, judgemental and self righteous. But attacking the PR church with no holding back and without remorse solves nothing. Are we not a body of Christ, saved by HIS blood and brought to HIM by the spirit. Bashing any faith across the board helps no one. We can all glean truth from any faith, but it must be based on scripture. Without faith in the truth of scripture then faith is dead because we have nothing to base it on and this thread doesn't matter and the conversation is over no matter your opinion. It's all based on your interpretation of the scripture, which can be debated to the end of time. If the Bible isn't seen as the TRUTH THEN this conversation doesn't matter and interpreting it doesn't either.I mean no offense, and you are welcome to your faith and views, but you can totally be a Christian and believe in philosophical relativism. The statement I highlighted is something a PRC education lays in pretty hard. You'd be hard pressed to get a lot of us to believe that anymore. You can believe that the Bible isn't 100% truth and still have this conversation matter. That statement you made is essentially poison if you're trying to convince an atheist that your views are rational and not just cult-enforced mindset. You can say "well it's true for me" and I would agree. However it's not true for me. And both statements can be correct. Because moral relativism is a better method of describing reality than objective truth. If we go down the objective truth rabbit hole, you will find yourself defending things like murder and genocide as ethically correct, and fast. I just can't hold to that. I refuse it. Here's an example. Deuteronomy 7. It's not the only time genocide is something the OT God commands in the bible, I'm just picking one. If the Bible is objective truth delivered from God, then you must believe that God commands genocide as good. The act of genocide can, depending on circumstance, be good. I refuse that. I don't believe that genocide is an ethically correct thing to do, ever. And if God exists and is good and worthy of praise, then I don't believe He would command anything unethical, let alone genocide. For an example of what a relativist such as myself would believe: Joshua/Moses/Whoever may have believed that God wanted him to commit genocide. I don't believe that's true, though. If God exists, and I have faith that He does, I don't believe that He would ever give a command to commit genocide. You can disagree with that all you like, but I will never, ever deviate from that statement. In my opinion, if God existed and commanded things like genocide, then He wouldn't be worthy of praise - and it's easier to believe He doesn't exist. Bam - you've created an atheist. Actually, more likely you've created an anti-theist. Again, I mean no offense. I only want to illustrate how your opinion is very hostile, and I don't think you realize that it is. The post above and the bolded text especially is circular reasoning, a logic fallacy that has ended more than one conversation. |
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