|
Post by throwaway2018 on Sept 9, 2021 17:54:36 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
|
|
|
Post by pemptyr on Sept 9, 2021 20:32:30 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
I never repeated to anyone the prc has the purest preaching, but I did say some other things you listed. Based on how I feel I wouldn't be surprised if it has more to do with being familiar with the people in the prc and all that entails and if you leave and join another church you feel like an outsider, it's hard to make friends, etc.
|
|
Whisper
Seminary Student
Posts: 452
|
Post by Whisper on Sept 9, 2021 20:41:08 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
I never repeated to anyone the prc has the purest preaching, but I did say some other things you listed. Based on how I feel I wouldn't be surprised if it has more to do with being familiar with the people in the prc and all that entails and if you leave and join another church you feel like an outsider, it's hard to make friends, etc. Some of my children who left still think their doctrine is closest to the truth. I did for a couple of years till logic took over and brainwashing wore off.
|
|
|
Post by throwaway2018 on Sept 9, 2021 20:50:14 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
I never repeated to anyone the prc has the purest preaching, but I did say some other things you listed. Based on how I feel I wouldn't be surprised if it has more to do with being familiar with the people in the prc and all that entails and if you leave and join another church you feel like an outsider, it's hard to make friends, etc. That definitely has an effect too, no doubt. The people I talked to didn't mention that as their reason, but that may have just been because they may have felt embarrassed to admit it for some reason, or maybe they didn't want to consider that leaving might affect their relationships that way. I have to say pemptyr, you're a special case to me. Most of these people I talked to I wouldn't consider "expr"; they were still too supportive of the church in general for me to think that. However, you seem like you want badly to be out, it's just that your life circumstances make leaving really difficult. I totally empathize, I struggled with that for years too. Even though you're not physically out, you're "expr" in a way that those people weren't. Maybe that's part of the difference too. IDK. I feel like you're overcoming the indoctrination in a way that those people didn't. You don't ignore the flaws of the PRC in the way that many of these people are quick to try and brush off. Even though they were questioning the PRC themselves, it was like they were afraid of doing it too seriously and what that would mean.
|
|
|
Post by pemptyr on Sept 9, 2021 21:13:38 GMT
I never repeated to anyone the prc has the purest preaching, but I did say some other things you listed. Based on how I feel I wouldn't be surprised if it has more to do with being familiar with the people in the prc and all that entails and if you leave and join another church you feel like an outsider, it's hard to make friends, etc. That definitely has an effect too, no doubt. The people I talked to didn't mention that as their reason, but that may have just been because they may have felt embarrassed to admit it for some reason, or maybe they didn't want to consider that leaving might affect their relationships that way. I have to say pemptyr, you're a special case to me. Most of these people I talked to I wouldn't consider "expr"; they were still too supportive of the church in general for me to think that. However, you seem like you want badly to be out, it's just that your life circumstances make leaving really difficult. I totally empathize, I struggled with that for years too. Even though you're not physically out, you're "expr" in a way that those people weren't. Maybe that's part of the difference too. IDK. I feel like you're overcoming the indoctrination in a way that those people didn't. You don't ignore the flaws of the PRC in the way that many of these people are quick to try and brush off. Even though they were questioning the PRC themselves, it was like they were afraid of doing it too seriously and what that would mean. I know people will say other churches have flaws also but I wouldn't say the prc has some flaws, I think it's at a level worse than that. They have no love for the neighbor. I'd probably say more but I'm not as good as articulating it as you.
|
|
|
Post by questioneverything on Sept 9, 2021 22:25:36 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
"The purest form of the gospel." "The purest preaching." Yes, this is pounded into their heads and they parrot it like whores at a porn convention, if not a PRC YP's convention. When I hear it now, I laugh, and then get the most quizzical looks. I ask, "how the hell would you know?" They, the PRCA, take indoctrination seriously and literally, questions and doubt are not allowed. Doubt is sin. Questions, weakness. When one can finally step back and just observe the PRCA and all its selfish idiosyncrasies you begin to realize how cowardly they are. And, because of this fear, this distrust of Christians, the more they circle the wagons, the more ammunition they discharge, the more they isolate themselves, and the more they fall on their childish indoctrinations which sounds so silly to me..."but we have the purest..." It seems that by 8th or 9th grade most are fully indoctrinated, never to mature any further than..."we are the most pure." And their basis for this position? Because they were told so, over and over and over again. Indoctrination. Brainwashing. All other positions are a threat! And, that ammunition they discharge, it's real, so very real and lethal...but they've been brainwashed to not care of the wounds it inflicts, because the purest form of Christ's teachings bring on a feigned sadness and a judgment of certainty in their created purity.
|
|
|
Post by cannalily on Sept 10, 2021 11:06:38 GMT
The most frustrating line that I hear from PR's is this: Nobody's perfect, and the church isn't perfect.
Well, I wasn't asking if there was a perfect church. I never asked that.
Taking it to this extreme negates anything brought up objectively. It's a great defense mechanism for PRs. But when you take a step back, it's the biggest copout of taking responsibility for the church's actions.
There's no doubt PR people are trained incredibly well. The real question is though -> For what reason? To defend the truth? And which truth is that?
|
|
Whisper
Seminary Student
Posts: 452
|
Post by Whisper on Sept 10, 2021 11:46:13 GMT
The most frustrating line that I hear from PR's is this: Nobody's perfect, and the church isn't perfect. Well, I wasn't asking if there was a perfect church. I never asked that. Taking it to this extreme negates anything brought up objectively. It's a great defense mechanism for PRs. But when you take a step back, it's the biggest copout of taking responsibility for the church's actions. There's no doubt PR people are trained incredibly well. The real question is though -> For what reason? To defend the truth? And which truth is that? Good point, and well said.
|
|
|
Post by ExPRisoner on Sept 10, 2021 13:45:57 GMT
Some maybe even most members don't have an issue with anything the PR's say, do or don't do because they are simply the best, they defend because that is the protocol. I did rec a call from a member that was fully indoctrinated and he was being effected by the heavy hand of the Elders for the first time in his life. He was contemplating leaving so he simply asked if there is life outside the PRC. He proceed to list several typical PRC distinctives that he just couldn't leave behind. I noticed as I went to explaining the benefits of leaving he began to challenge each point I was making. I was already aware that his wife was more then ready to get out and was spiritually dying. I was honest, and after much conversation I focused more on the benefit to his wife and family, thinking that the best place for him may very well be the PRC.
He did leave and had a very difficult time with the shunning and over all decompression, but I have been told that he is the happiest he has ever been after a few years out. The shunning played a big part in him removing the scales on his eyes and seeing that he made the right decision.
|
|
|
Post by ExPRisoner on Sept 10, 2021 13:49:03 GMT
Some maybe even most members don't have an issue with anything the PR's say, do or don't do because they are simply the best, they defend because that is the protocol. I did rec a call from a member that was fully indoctrinated and he was being effected by the heavy hand of the Elders for the first time in his life. He was contemplating leaving so he simply asked if there is life outside the PRC. He proceed to list several typical PRC distinctives that he just couldn't leave behind. I noticed as I went to explaining the benefits of leaving he began to challenge each point I was making. I was already aware that his wife was more then ready to get out and was spiritually dying. I was honest, and after much conversation I focused more on the benefit to his wife and family, thinking that the best place for him may very well be the PRC.
He did leave and had a very difficult time with the shunning and over all decompression, but I have been told that he is the happiest he has ever been after a few years out. The shunning played a big part in him removing the scales on his eyes and seeing that he made the right decision.
|
|
|
Post by tryingtoleave on Sept 10, 2021 14:32:49 GMT
I can definitely relate to feeling like you don't have anyone to talk to about doubts in the PRC. When I was still in the PRC I was afraid to bring up any questions of doubt, no matter how major or minor, even with people who were supposed to be my friends or family members. The second you bring up any doubts or questions, it is common for people to immediately attack you and defend the church at all cost. I don't have as many examples as listed above, but the one thing I have noticed is that people will say "but the PRC has an issue with ____" or "the PRC looks down on people who ____". Almost like they disagree with the PRC stance, but are still too afraid to say anything overtly out loud and just tip toe around the subject.
|
|
|
Post by Ham Bun on Sept 30, 2021 22:12:24 GMT
Something I've been personally dwelling on a lot is how the PRC indoctrinates. After I left the PRC, I found I had many PRs begin to confide in me about various issues they had with the PRC. These issues were all over the place, and I'll list the different ones I can remember below. In an attempt to protect the privacy of people, I won't be relaying specifics. - Some people felt they had been wronged by a person in a leadership position. They felt they had a case that was mishandled or that they were wrongly reprimanded for something that they shouldn't have been reprimanded for.
- Some people disagreed with official teachings of the church in certain areas. I would categorize these as people who had multiple minor disagreements, not a major disagreement. Basically, these would be issues that would be solved by attending another Dutch Reformed denomination, not switching to a different branch of Christianity.
- Some people didn't like their current minister and felt he was either too hardline or not hardline enough.
- Some people told me they just had doubts and questions in general, and felt like they had no one they could talk to about it.
- Some people disliked the other people in the congregation, feeling they were too judgmental or fake about their beliefs.
- Some people just plain didn't feel that strongly about the PRC anymore. They didn't bring up any specific issues, they just weren't fired up over believing the PRC was the ultimate source of truth.
Despite these people framing their issues as minor issues, I could tell that many of these people were pretty distressed by them. They would express how they didn't want me to tell anyone else, and that they were confiding in me because they wanted to show that they, in some way, knew how I felt. They were being honest and vulnerable in these conversations, but I could also tell that they were a little uncomfortable admitting these things to me, like maybe I would judge them for not being confident enough or that I would maybe go tell someone else.
My point in sharing all this with you is to bring up how many people react to the idea of leaving. Inevitably, the idea of leaving came up, whether it was me leaving or whether they would consider leaving themselves. In almost every case, there was a response of "the PRC has the purest preaching" in some form or another. Frequently, it would be with those exact words.
It was such a stark reminder of the indoctrination we all went through. Here I am, listening to people who have serious issues with the PRC but feel like they can't leave because there's no better option out there. These people were PR their entire life and never seriously attended another denomination, yet they would make this pronouncement that they were at the best church out there. It was like they didn't recognize that their complaints meant that there is almost certainly a better church out there for them. I can't express how many people there are - of the people close enough to me to talk about these sorts of things, I would say around half have shared these views. How are there that many unhappy people in the denomination if not for indoctrination?
Does anyone have similar stories or other examples of indoctrination?
I wonder if this reaches the average PRC person, or is it immediately discounted because a minister or elder didn't write it. It's pretty sad how indoctrination works. It's like bad mayo on a ham bun. It kinda tastes ok, but then you pay for it later. And who puts mayo on a ham bun! It's thick Dutch butter always.
|
|