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Post by Andatlastiseethelight on Jan 15, 2022 20:36:29 GMT
Ever since we’ve left we’ve noticed a very strong insistence in the older generation that we “must join with a church” even if we just aren’t sure. There is a strong insistence there. Very pushy. Demanding.
Makes me wonder... is belonging to a church the part that saves?
Or is the “oversight of elders” that saves?
Maybe doctrine does?
Or is it really Jesus?
Or is it altogether something else?
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Post by fellowhuman on Jan 15, 2022 21:31:40 GMT
Ever since we’ve left we’ve noticed a very strong insistence in the older generation that we “must join with a church” even if we just aren’t sure. There is a strong insistence there. Very pushy. Demanding. Makes me wonder... is belonging to a church the part that saves? Or is the “oversight of elders” that saves? Maybe doctrine does? Or is it really Jesus? Or is it altogether something else? How is a man in 1st century China saved? Or the North Sentinel Island today, where they have no common language and our presence would bring diseases that would likely wipe them out? This question can only sound relevant for the past 5 centuries or so, perhaps the past 2 millenia in some circles, and all within only people of European descent with additions (largely due to conquering/colonizing/enslaving) over time. Most people throughout history have had similar questions that make sense only within their own systems. They look out at other cultures and tribes and see "the world". The question they rarely ask is where the information comes from that makes the questions worth asking in the first place. Everyone intuitively feels that their system is right, and there are just a few consistency errors to iron out. Why? By what method have they discovered that the foundations of their system are factually accurate? By trusting it without need for evidence? Then why ask the question? Justifications are not required, so pick an answer and trust that it's right! When someone asks you why you picked Jesus saving over the church saving, just say you have faith that it's the case. Or vice versa. Cherry pick a few verses to prove your point. Apologies. Rant over, pretend I'm not here. |
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Post by questioneverything on Jan 15, 2022 21:43:09 GMT
Ever since we’ve left we’ve noticed a very strong insistence in the older generation that we “must join with a church” even if we just aren’t sure. There is a strong insistence there. Very pushy. Demanding. Makes me wonder... is belonging to a church the part that saves? Or is the “oversight of elders” that saves? Maybe doctrine does? Or is it really Jesus? Or is it altogether something else? How is a man in 1st century China saved? Or the North Sentinel Island today, where they have no common language and our presence would bring diseases that would likely wipe them out? This question can only sound relevant for the past 5 centuries or so, perhaps the past 2 millenia in some circles, and all within only people of European descent with additions (largely due to conquering/colonizing/enslaving) over time. Most people throughout history have had similar questions that make sense only within their own systems. They look out at other cultures and tribes and see "the world". The question they rarely ask is where the information comes from that makes the questions worth asking in the first place. Everyone intuitively feels that their system is right, and there are just a few consistency errors to iron out. Why? By what method have they discovered that the foundations of their system are factually accurate? By trusting it without need for evidence? Then why ask the question? Justifications are not required, so pick an answer and trust that it's right! When someone asks you why you picked Jesus saving over the church saving, just say you have faith that it's the case. Or vice versa. Cherry pick a few verses to prove your point. Apologies. Rant over, pretend I'm not here. Geography and ancestry pretty much determine "faith". Some call it covenant, I call it convenient. |
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Post by freestuff on Jan 16, 2022 18:03:01 GMT
Ever since we’ve left we’ve noticed a very strong insistence in the older generation that we “must join with a church” even if we just aren’t sure. There is a strong insistence there. Very pushy. Demanding. Makes me wonder... is belonging to a church the part that saves? Or is the “oversight of elders” that saves? Maybe doctrine does? Or is it really Jesus? Or is it altogether something else? Makes me wonder... is belonging to a church the part that saves?
The Dutch have a continuing fascination with article 27-29 of Belgic Confession which is a true masterpiece of language thats both loaded and ambiguous. Ministers have long been playing a loose "mix and match" game where they interchange church universal, local church assembly, true church, false church, church visible, church invisible and then drop in the term "salvation" wherever needed. This loaded, ambiguous language permeated Reformed Dutchville at all levels many years ago and the PRC/RPC keep the tradition alive. The laity follow suit and interchange the different conceptions of "church" as well. I think this is a big driver for the supposed mandate that one MUST go to church to be saved. Check out Lanning give a seemingly innocuous sermon about the elect in all churches then around the 1 hour mark he starts doing "Belgic Confession Salad" and sends everyone in the PRC to hell. While Lannings sermon might not directly relate to your situation it does demonstrate the ability of church authority to be two faced and create confusion.Or is the “oversight of elders” that saves?
No elder oversight means no church discipline which is a mark of the True Church. The preceding BC article says "Out of it there is no salvation" - What does "it" refer to precisely? Unfortunately our Dutch ancestry decided to adopt this "clear summary of Reformed Truths" which happens to suffer from pronoun confusion. Maybe doctrine does? Adherence to good doctrine keeps the preaching pure which is a mark of the True Church. See previous point.Or is it really Jesus?
Repenting and following Christ is pretty low on the PRC/RPC agenda.Or is it altogether something else? Of course there's more salvation *asterisks* out there, but I want to keep this post relatively short. There's a lot of layers to dig through in trying to figure out this ridiculous church. |
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