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Post by notakoolaiddrinker on Apr 18, 2024 13:21:13 GMT
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Post by prnolonger on Apr 18, 2024 15:18:55 GMT
When watching stuff about Bill Hybels, it's such a clear ringing bell that says "that's us." Thanks for linking. We're not alone.
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Post by blessed2be on Apr 18, 2024 16:24:59 GMT
Just put it on.
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Post by grumpy on Apr 18, 2024 19:49:58 GMT
DJE has slain his thousands, and Bill Gothard his ten thousands. That's actually a gross understatement. Bill Gothard was not confined within a denomination. He was more like a virus that infected otherwise healthy churches and homes. Again, I cannot overstate the damage. It's been like 4 or 5 decades, and I am still seeing bad fruit coming out of this movement. What was the appeal of Bill Gothard? My best answer is: - Bill Gothard's big thing was umbrellas of authority. Who doesn't want to have blessings under the umbrella of a God-appointed authority? Who wants to have cursings on their life for stepping out from under that authority? Stay under your umbrella(s), and the Devil can't get you.
- Bill Gothard offered a set of rules for your entire life. Bill Gothard had an answer for everyone's situation (see video above.) This was a shortcut to skip the hard work of opening your Bible, wrestling with the principles, and applying them to your unique circumstances. To put it another way, if you want a set of rules instead of a set of principles, he's your guy. (The "P" in IBLP is so ironic. Fundamental confusion between principles and rules.)
- Bill Gothard's IBLP etc. held large events. These events provided a sense of belonging, a sense of all being together in what we are doing, and cheering for the same team. If so many people believe this, it must be right. Think of the emotions of cheering for your favorite sports team, but misplaced.
- Bill Gothard usually began with Scripture. He wove very true things into his material, so it could be hard to see the errors. It was subtle. Part of the subtlety is that he was the master definer of everything. I know more than one person whose attitude was "Yeah, there's some imbalances, but it's mostly good stuff." (That, to me, sounds eerily familiar to the larger Reformed world's perception of the PRCA.)
- The system promised something that every participant wanted (or thought they wanted). The husband gets to call the shots, with no pushback. The wife doesn't need to worry about family issues (not my umbrella; if he messes up, he gets cursed but I am still protected in my obedience), but she still gets to tell the kiddos what to do. The parents are promised well behaved children that grow up to be prosperous adults. The kids get a promise that if they dress a certain way, talk a certain way, and do all the right Christian activities, they will be blessed with the perfect marriage to the perfect spouse. And everyone gets similar blessings on their church and business life. What's not to like?
The end result was a lot of legalism. There was an underlying element of fear, or more realistically an assurance that, if done right, there was no need to fear. (With constant check-ins with the system to confirm you're doing it right of course.) And if it still didn't go right, that was of course persecution. Let me just assert that legalism works until it doesn't, with tragic results. I will let y'all draw your own parallels (or lack thereof) to the PR experience. A recent conference dealt with this whole topic in a Q&A session. The insightful panel speakers pointed out that the Church was clueless for not picking up on some obvious things. Paraphrasing here, but if the organization wants your teenage daughter to go, alone, to live at their institute for advanced training, c'mon. Get a clue.
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Post by cannalily on Apr 19, 2024 10:56:13 GMT
DJE has slain his thousands, and Bill Gothard his ten thousands. That's actually a gross understatement. Bill Gothard was not confined within a denomination. He was more like a virus that infected otherwise healthy churches and homes. Again, I cannot overstate the damage. It's been like 4 or 5 decades, and I am still seeing bad fruit coming out of this movement. What was the appeal of Bill Gothard? My best answer is: - Bill Gothard's big thing was umbrellas of authority. Who doesn't want to have blessings under the umbrella of a God-appointed authority? Who wants to have cursings on their life for stepping out from under that authority? Stay under your umbrella(s), and the Devil can't get you.
- Bill Gothard offered a set of rules for your entire life. Bill Gothard had an answer for everyone's situation (see video above.) This was a shortcut to skip the hard work of opening your Bible, wrestling with the principles, and applying them to your unique circumstances. To put it another way, if you want a set of rules instead of a set of principles, he's your guy. (The "P" in IBLP is so ironic. Fundamental confusion between principles and rules.)
- Bill Gothard's IBLP etc. held large events. These events provided a sense of belonging, a sense of all being together in what we are doing, and cheering for the same team. If so many people believe this, it must be right. Think of the emotions of cheering for your favorite sports team, but misplaced.
- Bill Gothard usually began with Scripture. He wove very true things into his material, so it could be hard to see the errors. It was subtle. Part of the subtlety is that he was the master definer of everything. I know more than one person whose attitude was "Yeah, there's some imbalances, but it's mostly good stuff." (That, to me, sounds eerily familiar to the larger Reformed world's perception of the PRCA.)
- The system promised something that every participant wanted (or thought they wanted). The husband gets to call the shots, with no pushback. The wife doesn't need to worry about family issues (not my umbrella; if he messes up, he gets cursed but I am still protected in my obedience), but she still gets to tell the kiddos what to do. The parents are promised well behaved children that grow up to be prosperous adults. The kids get a promise that if they dress a certain way, talk a certain way, and do all the right Christian activities, they will be blessed with the perfect marriage to the perfect spouse. And everyone gets similar blessings on their church and business life. What's not to like?
The end result was a lot of legalism. There was an underlying element of fear, or more realistically an assurance that, if done right, there was no need to fear. (With constant check-ins with the system to confirm you're doing it right of course.) And if it still didn't go right, that was of course persecution. Let me just assert that legalism works until it doesn't, with tragic results. I will let y'all draw your own parallels (or lack thereof) to the PR experience. A recent conference dealt with this whole topic in a Q&A session. The insightful panel speakers pointed out that the Church was clueless for not picking up on some obvious things. Paraphrasing here, but if the organization wants your teenage daughter to go, alone, to live at their institute for advanced training, c'mon. Get a clue.Kind of like a, well, a.. a CONVENTION? Got it.
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Post by cannalily on Apr 19, 2024 10:58:08 GMT
Just wondering here, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because, well, we're all just human, but wasn't RVO at the conventions?
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Post by I once was “l” but now I’m L on Apr 19, 2024 11:53:51 GMT
Just wondering here, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because, well, we're all just human, but wasn't RVO at the conventions?Yes you are right he preached at conventions.
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Post by grumpy on Apr 19, 2024 11:54:42 GMT
DJE has slain his thousands, and Bill Gothard his ten thousands. That's actually a gross understatement. Bill Gothard was not confined within a denomination. He was more like a virus that infected otherwise healthy churches and homes. Again, I cannot overstate the damage. It's been like 4 or 5 decades, and I am still seeing bad fruit coming out of this movement. What was the appeal of Bill Gothard? My best answer is: - Bill Gothard's big thing was umbrellas of authority. Who doesn't want to have blessings under the umbrella of a God-appointed authority? Who wants to have cursings on their life for stepping out from under that authority? Stay under your umbrella(s), and the Devil can't get you.
- Bill Gothard offered a set of rules for your entire life. Bill Gothard had an answer for everyone's situation (see video above.) This was a shortcut to skip the hard work of opening your Bible, wrestling with the principles, and applying them to your unique circumstances. To put it another way, if you want a set of rules instead of a set of principles, he's your guy. (The "P" in IBLP is so ironic. Fundamental confusion between principles and rules.)
- Bill Gothard's IBLP etc. held large events. These events provided a sense of belonging, a sense of all being together in what we are doing, and cheering for the same team. If so many people believe this, it must be right. Think of the emotions of cheering for your favorite sports team, but misplaced.
- Bill Gothard usually began with Scripture. He wove very true things into his material, so it could be hard to see the errors. It was subtle. Part of the subtlety is that he was the master definer of everything. I know more than one person whose attitude was "Yeah, there's some imbalances, but it's mostly good stuff." (That, to me, sounds eerily familiar to the larger Reformed world's perception of the PRCA.)
- The system promised something that every participant wanted (or thought they wanted). The husband gets to call the shots, with no pushback. The wife doesn't need to worry about family issues (not my umbrella; if he messes up, he gets cursed but I am still protected in my obedience), but she still gets to tell the kiddos what to do. The parents are promised well behaved children that grow up to be prosperous adults. The kids get a promise that if they dress a certain way, talk a certain way, and do all the right Christian activities, they will be blessed with the perfect marriage to the perfect spouse. And everyone gets similar blessings on their church and business life. What's not to like?
The end result was a lot of legalism. There was an underlying element of fear, or more realistically an assurance that, if done right, there was no need to fear. (With constant check-ins with the system to confirm you're doing it right of course.) And if it still didn't go right, that was of course persecution. Let me just assert that legalism works until it doesn't, with tragic results. I will let y'all draw your own parallels (or lack thereof) to the PR experience. A recent conference dealt with this whole topic in a Q&A session. The insightful panel speakers pointed out that the Church was clueless for not picking up on some obvious things. Paraphrasing here, but if the organization wants your teenage daughter to go, alone, to live at their institute for advanced training, c'mon. Get a clue.Kind of like a, well, a.. a CONVENTION? Got it. Different vibe. Conventions are temporary; these were permanent institutions with people coming and going. Imagine being sent off to volunteer for this organization. From an article here: and and elsewhereI didn't know anyone who did all that. Just people who did the training / curriculum / seminars to varying degrees. At its peak, this thing was huge.
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Post by psalmsinger on Apr 19, 2024 11:55:30 GMT
I think RVO was at almost every convention while he was a minister!
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Post by Skyfall on Apr 19, 2024 22:51:39 GMT
I think RVO was at almost every convention while he was a minister! The "fun" minister.
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