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Post by unwrittenrules on Oct 29, 2024 18:23:28 GMT
The PRC has created a culture or environment of fear.
It is a distinct fear where dismissing people is part of the solution.
Where not listening and invalidating them is the balm of the fear.
The solution is for people to not have needs. Yes, it goes against nurturing, but the battle of this fear doesn’t call for nurturing.
This fear calls for head knowledge.
The head knowledge taught by the PRC.
Big, scary people are out there with their own ideas, thoughts, and beliefs. And those people are bad people. They are not to be trusted.
MEANWHILE in creating this environment…people haven’t been nurtured or cared for but instead indoctrinated and the lack of care has harmed people.
But those who have been harmed keep their mouths shut because the solution is supposed to be their head knowledge.
Harm is supposed to be caused by those outside who don’t have the same head knowledge.
They are the ones to fear.
Don’t trust them.
Nobody is going to believe that those with the correct head knowledge cause harm.
That would be outrageous.
AND…that would be how hidden abuse works.
The people who do call attention to the harm done to them will be dismissed.
Self doubt, extreme confusion, stress and feelings of isolation will be the signs of someone who has experienced this harm and tried to verbalize it only to be cast aside.
The script of the PRC is that you make head knowledge first above all else. And you state that nobody in the PRC is trying to cause harm. Defend that. Protect that.
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Post by unwrittenrules on Oct 29, 2024 19:34:52 GMT
 Brad's work shows that those who are affected by the sick system has a responsibility to deal with the system. How you deal with dysfunction, toxicity, and unsafe environments is up to each person. But even not dealing with it is dealing with it. You are then dealing with it by ignoring it. Then they aren't changing. This chart shows or tells me that any spin off from the PRC will spread the toxicity elsewhere. |
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Post by iamwhoiam on Oct 30, 2024 5:40:17 GMT
The PRC has created a culture or environment of fear. It is a distinct fear where dismissing people is part of the solution. Where not listening and invalidating them is the balm of the fear. The solution is for people to not have needs. Yes, it goes against nurturing, but the battle of this fear doesn’t call for nurturing. This fear calls for head knowledge. The head knowledge taught by the PRC. Big, scary people are out there with their own ideas, thoughts, and beliefs. And those people are bad people. They are not to be trusted. MEANWHILE in creating this environment…people haven’t been nurtured or cared for but instead indoctrinated and the lack of care has harmed people. But those who have been harmed keep their mouths shut because the solution is supposed to be their head knowledge. Harm is supposed to be caused by those outside who don’t have the same head knowledge. They are the ones to fear. Don’t trust them. Nobody is going to believe that those with the correct head knowledge cause harm. That would be outrageous. AND…that would be how hidden abuse works. The people who do call attention to the harm done to them will be dismissed. Self doubt, extreme confusion, stress and feelings of isolation will be the signs of someone who has experienced this harm and tried to verbalize it only to be cast aside. The script of the PRC is that you make head knowledge first above all else. And you state that nobody in the PRC is trying to cause harm. Defend that. Protect that. Oh my. ALL of this!!! |
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Post by iamwhoiam on Oct 30, 2024 5:42:28 GMT
The PRC has created a culture or environment of fear. It is a distinct fear where dismissing people is part of the solution. Where not listening and invalidating them is the balm of the fear. The solution is for people to not have needs. Yes, it goes against nurturing, but the battle of this fear doesn’t call for nurturing. This fear calls for head knowledge. The head knowledge taught by the PRC. Big, scary people are out there with their own ideas, thoughts, and beliefs. And those people are bad people. They are not to be trusted. MEANWHILE in creating this environment…people haven’t been nurtured or cared for but instead indoctrinated and the lack of care has harmed people. But those who have been harmed keep their mouths shut because the solution is supposed to be their head knowledge. Harm is supposed to be caused by those outside who don’t have the same head knowledge. They are the ones to fear. Don’t trust them. Nobody is going to believe that those with the correct head knowledge cause harm. That would be outrageous. AND…that would be how hidden abuse works. The people who do call attention to the harm done to them will be dismissed. Self doubt, extreme confusion, stress and feelings of isolation will be the signs of someone who has experienced this harm and tried to verbalize it only to be cast aside. The script of the PRC is that you make head knowledge first above all else. And you state that nobody in the PRC is trying to cause harm. Defend that. Protect that. Also if this is your own personal story with the PRC I am so so sorry. I just relate hardcore to it. You aren't alone. Hugs |
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Post by Claudia K. on Oct 30, 2024 7:48:35 GMT
The best posts put into words what we experienced in isolated ways. Then we feel connected, known and validated when we read it. What a gift . . You help relieve the discomfort that goes with chronic pain of self-doubt, extreme confusion, stress, isolation by reminding us we are not the only ones and we are not the shameful origin of this pain.
Thank you, @unwrittenrules for being able to share the best gift this forum can provide. If another regular human gets it so well. . .imagine how much Jesus gets it as a Godwithus human.
A poetic prophetic insightful writer like you talked about a human of sorrows, acquainted with grief, who did not hide his face from shame and spitting during a time of being despised and rejected by other humans.
The power of God shines through in healing energy whereever people have courage to talk through the extreme pain of becoming a group's object of disgust for saying what is real.
Lucy Pevensie did this in The Lion Witch and Wardrobe, and also in Prince Caspian. She told others what she was noticing even when others could not or would not see it. She took a lot of intense mistreatment from her companions for doing so. And wept bitterly with loneliness and discouragement when others were cruel about her reports. But her insight and courage was part of an important story of relief for many, even for the early harsh mockers and haters.
Thank you so much for saying these true things, in all the ways and all the conversations you decide to do this. Your words of truthful, caring presence help others so much.
You have a special gift for naming the unwritten rules and reducing their iron grip on us by doing so.
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Post by unwrittenrules on Oct 30, 2024 13:46:36 GMT
Thank you for your kind words Beezus Q. and yes, iamwhoiam that is my personal story.
What happens when the environment you live in is toxic and doesn’t change, and you come to a place where you have to decide whether you want to stay or see what is out there.
So much has changed in the 18 years that I have been out and yet coming on this forum so much has stayed the same.
Just because things haven’t changed in the PRC that doesn’t take away the fact that so much story telling and research have been done about abuse.
Bringing the new information into the PRC and watching the culture sit and do nothing with it is part of the culture of fear.
As more time passes without dealing with the abuse and the cover up the more one realizes the PRC environment is not conducive for health and healing. Having to suppress emotions or feelings in order to fit in with the culture is difficult for any one body.
The body that did not receive a secure attachment in childhood will have to navigate why their attachment style is anxious and/or avoidant later in life. That body will feel more comfortable with cortisol surging their body than when the vagus nerve can do its job of “rest and digest.” Chronic fight/flight/fawn response due to the stress that is happening in the body who has been trained to suppress emotions.
The idea that ministers or leadership to this day in the PRC can gloss over all of this is maddening. The solution they offer is forgive and forget while the book “The Body Keeps the Score” was published 10 years ago. There is no convincing at this point. It is crystal clear that the leadership is asking for those with knowledge of abuse to keep their mouth quiet and move on. There is no more I don’t understand instead it is a willingness for misunderstanding. Where you are in that intersection of willing and unwilling is up to you.
What does an entire denomination do when abuse is uncovered? One can look at what has happened in the SBC. Interesting to note that in a few weeks Johnny Hunt will be going to court to sue the SBC for defamation and libel. He was in the SBC's Guidepost report.
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Post by unwrittenrules on Oct 31, 2024 13:30:41 GMT
As a survivor I have a willingness to accept being misunderstood. I know I can be wrong all day long because it doesn’t matter to me about who is right and who is wrong. People have different perspectives and I try and understand where people are coming from. I ask questions, self reflect, and try to be open.
And the PRC has a willingness to accept being misunderstood. But here is the difference because the PRC would like to believe that they have the solution for misunderstanding being their head knowledge. If a problem arises and that head knowledge isn’t the solution they are willing to misunderstand, and also accept being misunderstood. They hold on to head knowledge with every fiber of their being and along with that comes a correctness or rightness for them. You can pound your head against a wall trying to get passed it but there is definitely a wall.
The lens that most PRC people come from is through the lens that their head knowledge/doctrine can solve almost any spiritual problem, mental problem, marriage problem, financial problem, abuse problem, physical problem and it isn’t true.
But that is their lens. Head knowledge doesn't solve all problems.
If they want to feel right about it go ahead, but I don’t have any respect for that type of thinking.
We were made for connection and the head knowledge and rightness about the PRC makes it almost impossible to connect with them unless of course you think the same way as them.
Different perspectives aren’t encouraged, ideas aren’t sought out and the PRC is a closed system. So if you don’t like what is happening in the PRC you have choices. Keep on with your head knowledge being your all, beat your head against a wall, or get out.
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Post by Claudia K. on Oct 31, 2024 14:13:51 GMT
As a survivor I have a willingness to accept being misunderstood. I know I can be wrong all day long because it doesn’t matter to me about who is right and who is wrong. People have different perspectives and I try and understand where people are coming from. I ask questions, self reflect, and try to be open. And the PRC has a willingness to accept being misunderstood. But here is the difference because the PRC would like to believe that they have the solution for misunderstanding being their head knowledge. If a problem arises and that head knowledge isn’t the solution they are willing to misunderstand, and also accept being misunderstood. They hold on to head knowledge with every fiber of their being and along with that comes a correctness or rightness for them. You can pound your head against a wall trying to get passed it but there is definitely a wall. The lens that most PRC people come from is through the lens that their head knowledge/doctrine can solve almost any spiritual problem, mental problem, marriage problem, financial problem, abuse problem, physical problem and it isn’t true. If they want to feel right about it go ahead, but I don’t have any respect for that type of thinking. We were made for connection and the head knowledge and rightness about the PRC makes it almost impossible to connect with them unless of course you think the same way as them. Different perspectives aren’t encouraged, ideas aren’t sought out and the PRC is a closed system. So if you don’t like what is happening in the PRC you have choices. Keep on with your head knowledge being your all, beat your head against a wall, or get out. Thank you. In my church Bible study yesterday we discussed Ephesians 4:17-21. . . and we noted that the word "sensitivity" is the healing connection between a mind/body dis-connect that is very common in how many of us humans are brought up from a young age. We need to interweave our bodily sensations/feelings and mind/thoughts/doctrines. Without that connection there is either mindless sensuality (being guided only by bodily drives and not by thoughtfulness) or disembodied futility of thinking (abstract thoughts that are completely disconnected from bodily realities and emotional processes that keep us in touch with danger/pleasure/pain.) I hope that a healing encounter with our created ability to have sensitivity is the link that Jesus restores to all of us who had tons of structure for our thought processes but had little or no guidance with managing feelings or validating the brain parts that alert us in important ways to our experience of harm or need, comfort or contentment. |
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Post by dandelionwine on Oct 31, 2024 15:01:35 GMT
Thats really interesting - definitely rings true to my experience and getting back to the basics of having a relationship with God, as opposed to focusing on head knowledge. Sounds like a valuable Bible study!
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Post by blindrealist on Oct 31, 2024 16:46:06 GMT
As a survivor I have a willingness to accept being misunderstood. I know I can be wrong all day long because it doesn’t matter to me about who is right and who is wrong. People have different perspectives and I try and understand where people are coming from. I ask questions, self reflect, and try to be open. And the PRC has a willingness to accept being misunderstood. But here is the difference because the PRC would like to believe that they have the solution for misunderstanding being their head knowledge. If a problem arises and that head knowledge isn’t the solution they are willing to misunderstand, and also accept being misunderstood. They hold on to head knowledge with every fiber of their being and along with that comes a correctness or rightness for them. You can pound your head against a wall trying to get passed it but there is definitely a wall. The lens that most PRC people come from is through the lens that their head knowledge/doctrine can solve almost any spiritual problem, mental problem, marriage problem, financial problem, abuse problem, physical problem and it isn’t true. But that is their lens. Head knowledge doesn't solve all problems. If they want to feel right about it go ahead, but I don’t have any respect for that type of thinking. We were made for connection and the head knowledge and rightness about the PRC makes it almost impossible to connect with them unless of course you think the same way as them. Different perspectives aren’t encouraged, ideas aren’t sought out and the PRC is a closed system. So if you don’t like what is happening in the PRC you have choices. Keep on with your head knowledge being your all, beat your head against a wall, or get out. Great points!
In my mind this is what happens in a system that is abusive. Its an environment that is legalistic. It exerts legal pressure through coercion, bullying and manipulation. The overlords aren't going to expose their hearts. Its just not what lords do. So they can't talk about the heart because it comes too close to exposing their own. Those under this pressure aren't going to expose the hearts, as part of their defence. They're just going to do their best to keep from getting their hearts hurt. The same thinking goes into their relationships of home and family. They know how to get along and put on a good show. But they have a hard time with love from the heart.
It ties in with this complete emphasis on doctrine. Its more than the match between doctrine and head knowledge. Its a distraction from the Bible which talks so much about the heart. Its like tunnel vision when it comes to the Bible. I think its also the way that these new denominations get formed. Its not so much about doctrine. Its about pride, power struggles, need for attention and visibility and personality conflicts. Doctrine is a necessary afterthought and provides the justification for breaking away. Meanwhile the thinking that its all doctrine and only doctrine gets written deeper into the DNA. So Christmas has to be about a sword. It can't be about good tidings of great joy to all people. It can't be about peace and good will to all men.
The other side confirms this. Why is it that churches thought to be more liberal are also so much better at loving and caring, being hospitable and charitable?
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Post by prnolonger on Oct 31, 2024 17:05:02 GMT
As a survivor I have a willingness to accept being misunderstood. I know I can be wrong all day long because it doesn’t matter to me about who is right and who is wrong. People have different perspectives and I try and understand where people are coming from. I ask questions, self reflect, and try to be open. And the PRC has a willingness to accept being misunderstood. But here is the difference because the PRC would like to believe that they have the solution for misunderstanding being their head knowledge. If a problem arises and that head knowledge isn’t the solution they are willing to misunderstand, and also accept being misunderstood. They hold on to head knowledge with every fiber of their being and along with that comes a correctness or rightness for them. You can pound your head against a wall trying to get passed it but there is definitely a wall. The lens that most PRC people come from is through the lens that their head knowledge/doctrine can solve almost any spiritual problem, mental problem, marriage problem, financial problem, abuse problem, physical problem and it isn’t true. But that is their lens. Head knowledge doesn't solve all problems. If they want to feel right about it go ahead, but I don’t have any respect for that type of thinking. We were made for connection and the head knowledge and rightness about the PRC makes it almost impossible to connect with them unless of course you think the same way as them. Different perspectives aren’t encouraged, ideas aren’t sought out and the PRC is a closed system. So if you don’t like what is happening in the PRC you have choices. Keep on with your head knowledge being your all, beat your head against a wall, or get out. Great points!
In my mind this is what happens in a system that is abusive. Its an environment that is legalistic. It exerts legal pressure through coercion, bullying and manipulation. The overlords aren't going to expose their hearts. Its just not what lords do. So they can't talk about the heart because it comes too close to exposing their own. Those under this pressure aren't going to expose the hearts, as part of their defence. They're just going to do their best to keep from getting their hearts hurt. The same thinking goes into their relationships of home and family. They know how to get along and put on a good show. But they have a hard time with love from the heart.
It ties in with this complete emphasis on doctrine. Its more than the match between doctrine and head knowledge. Its a distraction from the Bible which talks so much about the heart. Its like tunnel vision when it comes to the Bible. I think its also the way that these new denominations get formed. Its not so much about doctrine. Its about pride, power struggles, need for attention and visibility and personality conflicts. Doctrine is a necessary afterthought and provides the justification for breaking away. Meanwhile the thinking that its all doctrine and only doctrine gets written deeper into the DNA. So Christmas has to be about a sword. It can't be about good tidings of great joy to all people. It can't be about peace and good will to all men.
The other side confirms this. Why is it that churches thought to be more liberal are also so much better at loving and caring, being hospitable and charitable?
That is an observation I have come across repeatedly with many ex-PR's who have deconstructed (or PR's who are in the process of that deconstruction). At some point, when evaluating at face value the behaviors of people in other churches with "liberal" beliefs or whatever ever PR label has been slapped onto said church regarding their doctrinal impurity when judged against the PR standard, the glaring question becomes obvious, just like you phrased it above! Why is it that these other people outside of the PRC seem so much better at loving and caring, being hospitable and charitable? Why is that? Why is it that the "closest to True Church on earth" with the best doctrines leads to... behaviors like what I have seen or experienced, and continue seeing and experiencing? Shouldn't it not be like that? The PR answer is the standard blasé no perfect church speech, that churches are for sinners, churches are full of broken people, everywhere else is bad too, probably even worse, usually mixed in with some guilt about how the person asking that question are reading the wrong things on the internet or are sinning by focusing on the negatives. Maybe you get a little "I'll pray for you" thrown in on the side, with an undertone of "pray for you to stop having questions and go back to not complaining" without actually dealing with the underlying reasons for what inspired the question in the first place. Maybe if you're really lucky you'll get a "complaining Israelites" comparison who don't know how good they have it despite being God's chosen people. The question remains though, because once you see it you really can't unsee it. The why of it will eat at you, as it has many of us. We're a pretty diverse bunch that come to different answers, but that observation itself is very common among people starting down the path of trying to finding an answer. |
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Post by vanquished on Oct 31, 2024 18:16:46 GMT
The next time you get told by a PR they have the purest form of “The Truth”, ask them to describe in detail their efforts in the Great Commission and loving your neighbor in the lens of Galatians 6:10. The two great callings of the church are to spread the gospel and be a light to all around them. They suck at both.
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Post by friday on Oct 31, 2024 18:35:38 GMT
I am just really glad this thread is in the narthex, and Admin if you could leave it here that would be amazing. Tons of good food for thought in every post on the thread for PRs who are searching, wondering, feeling like "Something's Not Right". |
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Post by blindrealist on Oct 31, 2024 23:12:41 GMT
Great points!
In my mind this is what happens in a system that is abusive. Its an environment that is legalistic. It exerts legal pressure through coercion, bullying and manipulation. The overlords aren't going to expose their hearts. Its just not what lords do. So they can't talk about the heart because it comes too close to exposing their own. Those under this pressure aren't going to expose the hearts, as part of their defence. They're just going to do their best to keep from getting their hearts hurt. The same thinking goes into their relationships of home and family. They know how to get along and put on a good show. But they have a hard time with love from the heart.
It ties in with this complete emphasis on doctrine. Its more than the match between doctrine and head knowledge. Its a distraction from the Bible which talks so much about the heart. Its like tunnel vision when it comes to the Bible. I think its also the way that these new denominations get formed. Its not so much about doctrine. Its about pride, power struggles, need for attention and visibility and personality conflicts. Doctrine is a necessary afterthought and provides the justification for breaking away. Meanwhile the thinking that its all doctrine and only doctrine gets written deeper into the DNA. So Christmas has to be about a sword. It can't be about good tidings of great joy to all people. It can't be about peace and good will to all men.
The other side confirms this. Why is it that churches thought to be more liberal are also so much better at loving and caring, being hospitable and charitable?
That is an observation I have come across repeatedly with many ex-PR's who have deconstructed (or PR's who are in the process of that deconstruction). At some point, when evaluating at face value the behaviors of people in other churches with "liberal" beliefs or whatever ever PR label has been slapped onto said church regarding their doctrinal impurity when judged against the PR standard, the glaring question becomes obvious, just like you phrased it above! Why is it that these other people outside of the PRC seem so much better at loving and caring, being hospitable and charitable? Why is that? Why is it that the "closest to True Church on earth" with the best doctrines leads to... behaviors like what I have seen or experienced, and continue seeing and experiencing? Shouldn't it not be like that? The PR answer is the standard blasé no perfect church speech, that churches are for sinners, churches are full of broken people, everywhere else is bad too, probably even worse, usually mixed in with some guilt about how the person asking that question are reading the wrong things on the internet or are sinning by focusing on the negatives. Maybe you get a little "I'll pray for you" thrown in on the side, with an undertone of "pray for you to stop having questions and go back to not complaining" without actually dealing with the underlying reasons for what inspired the question in the first place. Maybe if you're really lucky you'll get a "complaining Israelites" comparison who don't know how good they have it despite being God's chosen people. The question remains though, because once you see it you really can't unsee it. The why of it will eat at you, as it has many of us. We're a pretty diverse bunch that come to different answers, but that observation itself is very common among people starting down the path of trying to finding an answer. Doctrine doesn't save. I think that's the core of the issue.
In PR thinking it does. For all the PR's reading this I need to be clear. In the PRC its not about believing what the Bible teaches. Its supposing that being in the right church that has its doctrines all in the right order and agreeing with the Bible is what it means to be saved. That's first. Its supposing that you can sit in church and agreeing with everything that's spoken from the pulpit is what it means to be saved. It means being able to win arguments about doctrine. It means being able to fit it all together in your head so that you understand everything that you were taught in catechism. It means you can identify false doctrine and reject it. You can judge like crazy so you're justified. But its a legalistic and perfectionist system. Merit isn't law keeping. Its doctrine keeping. Keeping the doctrine of grace. But its kept in a cage. So it doesn't get down to the heart. That's too dangerous. It means not being in control.
But it needs to go in a different direction. Do the PRC really believe their own doctrines? I think they're so busy promoting and defending their doctrines to avoid asking the question whether they really believe what they're teaching?
They don't. Where's the humility? Where's the peace? Where's the love? These doctrines aren't living in the PRC. They aren't having their effect. Look at their pride and joy of doctrines. The doctrine of the antithesis joined with their rejection of common grace. Its a reason to hate. Where's love for fellow Christians in other denominations? Where's the happiness in seeing and knowing all the other churches that teach the gospel?
My point goes back to the question why these "more liberal" churches are so much better at love, kindness, and humility. They haven't got lost in a multitude of doctrinal distinctions that become only a distraction. They haven't been so busy drawing up battle lines and skirmishing with pretended enemies to forget their calling to love God and their neighbor as themselves. They love because they've been loved. For them grace isn't an idea in their head. Its the reality in their heart.
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Post by friday on Oct 31, 2024 23:24:52 GMT
They don't. Where's the humility? Where's the peace? Where's the love? These doctrines aren't living in the PRC. They aren't having their effect. Look at their pride and joy of doctrines. The doctrine of the antithesis joined with their rejection of common grace. Its a reason to hate. Where's love for fellow Christians in other denominations? Where's the happiness in seeing and knowing all the other churches that teach the gospel?
In the PRC, the "antithesis" is defined as the PRC vs. the rest of the church world (which is supposedly the universal church but sure isn't treated like that) instead of the church vs. the world. |
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