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Post by judendorf on Feb 21, 2021 17:51:37 GMT
Scenario—
New person wishes to join your Christian church. This person says they were baptized. This person says they confess that Christ is their savior and they look to him for direction.
Now, what I want to know is why any church is concerned with this person’s past. Why even go there? Why require papers? What happened to let your nay be nay and your yea be yea? To judge? If this person says they are committed to living a Christ like life, who are you without knowing this person to judge them by hearsay or any criteria besides their current confession? If you have clear and reliable information that says they are insincere in their confession that is one thing. Papers do not constitute clear and reliable information insofar as the speak to a persons sincerity in their confession.
The PRCA (and other reformed churches from what I’ve heard) is so concerned with papers as though they are a critical receipt God is going to check for at the door. Why? Because they consider themselves the gate keepers of heaven. They get to say who is part of the PRCA, and if you’re not then it’s basically a certainty you don’t go to heaven. Unrepentant sin right? Have to come back to our church to repent, the implied gateway to heaven.
Its all out in the open, you just have to put the pieces together. Christ is the door to the father. We are the door to Christ. That’s the logic. And it makes them the gatekeepers of heaven. It’s another gospel and conflicts with everything Christ teaches.
So God looks on fallible, sinful man with all his petty agendas and failures and says, Yep I’m going to let you decide who are my people by making you pick who is in the this church or that on earth. Its the implication of their teaching and plain to see once you look for it.
I wish they would just embrace it openly already and call it “development of the truth”. Like they did with the covenant as they understand it. It fits nicely with the rest of their doctrine.
I’d like to hear from others if this is a fair assessment or not. I understand that not every elder/member is of this mind but I speak of the majority.
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Post by singlepr on Feb 21, 2021 18:21:04 GMT
When I left the PR to another Reformed Church, the only thing they were concerned about is if I was baptised, of I was currently under discipline, and if so, why. They were not interested at all in papers.
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lemmy
Deaconberry
Posts: 86
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Post by lemmy on Feb 21, 2021 18:37:37 GMT
Most people coming to the PRC would not be expected to have any papers. My understanding is that not even all pr churches have actual physical papers. I was never sent any papers. Maybe they kept mine on record with a big red stamp on them "excommunicated". They would be concerned where you were baptized though I don't know if a CRC baptism would be accepted but most of the pr churches would not consider a Roman Catholic baptism to be legit. They would require the baptism be redone in a true church of God
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Post by cannalily on Mar 4, 2021 1:06:42 GMT
Yeah that whole "papers" thing is a joke. It's just one more sticking point that they use to try to keep you in the cult.
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Post by midwestchristian on Mar 4, 2021 15:40:16 GMT
I remember that being a huge issue when we left the PRC as well. The church wouldn't send our papers to our new church, because it wasn't a PRC. Instead, they mailed them to us at our home along with a letter of "deep sorrow" and some language about our kids being "lost in their generations." Initially my wife, having grown up in the PRC, was really upset about this. Our new church was kind of incredulous about the whole thing. They had accepted us into membership well before any "papers" arrived.
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Post by prnolonger on Mar 4, 2021 17:50:59 GMT
I remember that being a huge issue when we left the PRC as well. The church wouldn't send our papers to our new church, because it wasn't a PRC. Instead, they mailed them to us at our home along with a letter of "deep sorrow" and some language about our kids being "lost in their generations." Initially my wife, having grown up in the PRC, was really upset about this. Our new church was kind of incredulous about the whole thing. They had accepted us into membership well before any "papers" arrived. I got a funny look when I talked about my papers at my current church. The pastor, who is familiar somewhat with the PRC, gave a little laugh and was like "Yeah, nobody really cares. It's not really a thing. You can bring them and give them to me if you want to or it makes you feel better, but we're not really going to do anything with them." I gave that stupid envelope so much power. It's just an envelope. They train you so hard that the papers are so important. Like it's the keys to heaven and they are casting you out. It's just a trick that ends up making you fearful of a piece of paper. The paper has no power. So stupid. I know some family members didn't go to church the day that they knew it was going to be announced in the bulletin that my papers were being withdrawn because they couldn't bear it. If I had any regrets, it's that I didn't think to get a copy of that bulletin. What I wouldn't give for that now. I'd put the bulletin and the papers next to each other and keep them framed by my Bibles at home. Do you think if I ask my old PR church for them again that they'd send me something? Like a job referral? There's got to be a file somewhere. If the papers are that important, I'm sure they keep backup copies somewhere, right? Maybe they'll reprint and send it to me on demand? They gotta have my file in a box somewhere, right? Filed under "H" for HERETIC. Could be "R" for "REPROBATE". Maybe "C" for "CONDEMNED". I'm sure the papers have a very efficient storage system that came right from the Bible like the rest of the church order. Or maybe they don't exist because papers are a dumb concept that not even they follow and they probably just type up on the spot and print out when needed. So, so stupid. If you're still PR and worried about papers, don't be. It's a non-issue meant to make the leaving process more painful and some pageantry to make it look like there's a formal process. It gives them an excuse and scary words they can put in the bulletin to keep the others in line. It's all theater. Ask for your papers to be delivered to you in person by the elders and play party music while wearing a festive shirt. Have a fruity drink with one of those colorful parasol umbrellas and in a pineapple cup. Maybe a plate of scotcheroos so the elders don't feel too out of place. |
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Post by cannalily on Mar 4, 2021 19:17:02 GMT
I remember that being a huge issue when we left the PRC as well. The church wouldn't send our papers to our new church, because it wasn't a PRC. Instead, they mailed them to us at our home along with a letter of "deep sorrow" and some language about our kids being "lost in their generations." Initially my wife, having grown up in the PRC, was really upset about this. Our new church was kind of incredulous about the whole thing. They had accepted us into membership well before any "papers" arrived. I got a funny look when I talked about my papers at my current church. The pastor, who is familiar somewhat with the PRC, gave a little laugh and was like "Yeah, nobody really cares. It's not really a thing. You can bring them and give them to me if you want to or it makes you feel better, but we're not really going to do anything with them." I gave that stupid envelope so much power. It's just an envelope. They train you so hard that the papers are so important. Like it's the keys to heaven and they are casting you out. It's just a trick that ends up making you fearful of a piece of paper. The paper has no power. So stupid. I know some family members didn't go to church the day that they knew it was going to be announced in the bulletin that my papers were being withdrawn because they couldn't bear it. If I had any regrets, it's that I didn't think to get a copy of that bulletin. What I wouldn't give for that now. I'd put the bulletin and the papers next to each other and keep them framed by my Bibles at home. Do you think if I ask my old PR church for them again that they'd send me something? Like a job referral? There's got to be a file somewhere. If the papers are that important, I'm sure they keep backup copies somewhere, right? Maybe they'll reprint and send it to me on demand? They gotta have my file in a box somewhere, right? Filed under "H" for HERETIC. Could be "R" for "REPROBATE". Maybe "C" for "CONDEMNED". I'm sure the papers have a very efficient storage system that came right from the Bible like the rest of the church order. Or maybe they don't exist because papers are a dumb concept that not even they follow and they probably just type up on the spot and print out when needed. So, so stupid. If you're still PR and worried about papers, don't be. It's a non-issue meant to make the leaving process more painful and some pageantry to make it look like there's a formal process. It gives them an excuse and scary words they can put in the bulletin to keep the others in line. It's all theater. Ask for your papers to be delivered to you in person by the elders and play party music while wearing a festive shirt. Have a fruity drink with one of those colorful parasol umbrellas and in a pineapple cup. Maybe a plate of scotcheroos so the elders don't feel too out of place. Ha! So did I! It was actually a let down... mine was hand written. After it arrived in the mail I was like, "Really? That's the big deal?". |
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Post by pemptyr on Mar 4, 2021 19:24:50 GMT
I got a funny look when I talked about my papers at my current church. The pastor, who is familiar somewhat with the PRC, gave a little laugh and was like "Yeah, nobody really cares. It's not really a thing. You can bring them and give them to me if you want to or it makes you feel better, but we're not really going to do anything with them." I gave that stupid envelope so much power. It's just an envelope. They train you so hard that the papers are so important. Like it's the keys to heaven and they are casting you out. It's just a trick that ends up making you fearful of a piece of paper. The paper has no power. So stupid. I know some family members didn't go to church the day that they knew it was going to be announced in the bulletin that my papers were being withdrawn because they couldn't bear it. If I had any regrets, it's that I didn't think to get a copy of that bulletin. What I wouldn't give for that now. I'd put the bulletin and the papers next to each other and keep them framed by my Bibles at home. Do you think if I ask my old PR church for them again that they'd send me something? Like a job referral? There's got to be a file somewhere. If the papers are that important, I'm sure they keep backup copies somewhere, right? Maybe they'll reprint and send it to me on demand? They gotta have my file in a box somewhere, right? Filed under "H" for HERETIC. Could be "R" for "REPROBATE". Maybe "C" for "CONDEMNED". I'm sure the papers have a very efficient storage system that came right from the Bible like the rest of the church order. Or maybe they don't exist because papers are a dumb concept that not even they follow and they probably just type up on the spot and print out when needed. So, so stupid. If you're still PR and worried about papers, don't be. It's a non-issue meant to make the leaving process more painful and some pageantry to make it look like there's a formal process. It gives them an excuse and scary words they can put in the bulletin to keep the others in line. It's all theater. Ask for your papers to be delivered to you in person by the elders and play party music while wearing a festive shirt. Have a fruity drink with one of those colorful parasol umbrellas and in a pineapple cup. Maybe a plate of scotcheroos so the elders don't feel too out of place. Ha! So did I! It was actually a let down... mine was hand written. After it arrived in the mail I was like, "Really? That's the big deal?". Did it look like God's handwriting? |
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Post by prnolonger on Mar 4, 2021 19:27:59 GMT
Ha! So did I! It was actually a let down... mine was hand written. After it arrived in the mail I was like, "Really? That's the big deal?". Did it look like God's handwriting?   |
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Post by colorworld on Mar 10, 2021 1:17:03 GMT
Papers are a joke. They only matter if you’re fully brainwashed into all things PR. They’re not really necessary to join another church. Even if they do ask for papers you will be fine without them. Just another tool to control you and make you think they actually have power over you!
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Post by Feminist on Mar 11, 2021 2:19:31 GMT
Ha! So did I! It was actually a let down... mine was hand written. After it arrived in the mail I was like, "Really? That's the big deal?". [/quote]
I was so let down, too! Lol. I thought they were so important and would have so much stuff written in them. Nope! Just some “junk mail” for the burn pile!
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Post by Sophia M. on Mar 14, 2021 1:53:30 GMT
The paper itself is anticlimactic yes . . but the dismissive gesture of the process, that is harder to call "no big deal". You are all so right about the pageantry/process of it being the real mind game. I remember hoping my honesty and forthrightness during the exit interviews could make the difference between some kind of honorable or an dishonorable discharge paper certificate. I provided a written request after the 2nd one that the leaders would include with "the papers" a not that said something like: "we and the congregation members love you, will miss you, are grateful to have the years of knowing and enjoying your membership with us, and we wish you so many good things in your future."
Of course they didn't, and that refusal of any relational affirmation can intensify the sense of shame, a feeling being dishonorably discharged. Like a moral and social failure in the eyes of most of the people you ever knew, and even in God's eyes too.
When you've given decades of your life, emotional investment, social time, and earnest desire to practice integrity through all of it, it hurts to be labeled as a rejecter of the One True Church, when we became yet another one who was rejected for taking adult step to decide certain life choices for our well being.
How healing it would have been in that terrifying time to have leaders who could say goodbye with a tone of authentic Agape and Paraclete energy!
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Post by midwestchristian on Mar 14, 2021 2:41:22 GMT
The paper itself is anticlimactic yes . . but the dismissive gesture of the process, that is harder to call "no big deal". You are all so right about the pageantry/process of it being the real mind game. I remember hoping my honesty and forthrightness during the exit interviews could make the difference between some kind of honorable or an dishonorable discharge paper certificate. I provided a written request after the 2nd one that the leaders would include with "the papers" a not that said something like: "we and the congregation members love you, will miss you, are grateful to have the years of knowing and enjoying your membership with us, and we wish you so many good things in your future." Of course they didn't, and that refusal of any relational affirmation can intensify the sense of shame, a feeling being dishonorably discharged. Like a moral and social failure in the eyes of most of the people you ever knew, and even in God's eyes too. When you've given decades of your life, emotional investment, social time, and earnest desire to practice integrity through all of it, it hurts to be labeled as a rejecter of the One True Church, when we became yet another one who was rejected for taking adult step to decide certain life choices for our well being. How healing it would have been in that terrifying time to have leaders who could say goodbye with a tone of authentic Agape and Paraclete energy! When my wife and I left the PRC, we actually joined another very conservative church and denomination. We sent a letter to our former PR church, asking them to send our papers to our new church. In response, they sent them to our home with a letter of rebuke and some language about how our kids would likely be lost in our generations. They also put a note in their bulletin saying something along the lines of "At their request, the membership papers of _______________ were sent to them at their home." Completely dishonest in that we never asked for our papers to be sent to our home. It also made it sound like we were no longer even going to church. They wouldn't even indicate in the bulletin our new church home. Left a terrible taste in our mouths. |
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Post by cannalily on Mar 14, 2021 13:36:55 GMT
The paper itself is anticlimactic yes . . but the dismissive gesture of the process, that is harder to call "no big deal". You are all so right about the pageantry/process of it being the real mind game. I remember hoping my honesty and forthrightness during the exit interviews could make the difference between some kind of honorable or an dishonorable discharge paper certificate. I provided a written request after the 2nd one that the leaders would include with "the papers" a not that said something like: "we and the congregation members love you, will miss you, are grateful to have the years of knowing and enjoying your membership with us, and we wish you so many good things in your future." Of course they didn't, and that refusal of any relational affirmation can intensify the sense of shame, a feeling being dishonorably discharged. Like a moral and social failure in the eyes of most of the people you ever knew, and even in God's eyes too. When you've given decades of your life, emotional investment, social time, and earnest desire to practice integrity through all of it, it hurts to be labeled as a rejecter of the One True Church, when we became yet another one who was rejected for taking adult step to decide certain life choices for our well being. How healing it would have been in that terrifying time to have leaders who could say goodbye with a tone of authentic Agape and Paraclete energy! When my wife and I left the PRC, we actually joined another very conservative church and denomination. We sent a letter to our former PR church, asking them to send our papers to our new church. In response, they sent them to our home with a letter of rebuke and some language about how our kids would likely be lost in our generations. They also put a note in their bulletin saying something along the lines of "At their request, the membership papers of _______________ were sent to them at their home." Completely dishonest in that we never asked for our papers to be sent to our home. It also made it sound like we were no longer even going to church. They wouldn't even indicate in the bulletin our new church home. Left a terrible taste in our mouths. Of course! This is cult self-preservation at work. They have to make it sound like you're the Devil. They did the same thing to me. I got a letter to "turn from my evil ways and come back to worship twice on Sundays" - after not picking up the phone for 6 weeks. |
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