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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 23:16:26 GMT
Can you clarify the bolded sentence above? I agree that God does not have a "saving love" toward all people, where he's waiting for us to decide. However, your sentence implies that God has no love toward his creation. Is that what you meant? That's a really good question and I will try to clarify. No, I don't mean to imply that God has no love toward His creation. He did create all things and "it was good" until man screwed it up by disobeying. I don't think God now hates everything He created, but I do think there is a differentiation between His people and not His people. The grass, the trees, the air, the sky... they don't have souls so I'm not sure how God views them. I guess it matters more how we view/use them. John 1 (and other passages) explain that the world was created by and for Christ. The plan of salvation was in place before the world was created. So God created man knowing he would fall and need a savior... that's beyond what my mind can explain, but it's comforting to know the salvation plan was in place. Jesus Christ was Plan A, not Plan B when we screwed things up. So the love of God was there at the beginning. But His love is undeserved and He doesn't give it to everyone. Does that clarify my sentence? Or did I make everything more muddled?? Not more muddled, but not any more clear. How do you define the love of God? Is it only as regards salvation? How do you interpret God's apparent mercy toward Cain in Genesis, chapter 4?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 23:46:51 GMT
I appreciate your response and understand from where you come. However, could you please answer the questions in regards to the prc specifically? Yes, sorry, got called away from the computer for a bit. do you feel that the prc uses predestination as an identifier and a divisive tool? Do they use it to separate themselves from others, even others who believe in this doctrine, by their insistence of belief in it by parishioners, and by what seems to me to be their desire to have this argument, and by placing so much importance on the doctrine ?
Yes, I think that does happen. Predestination is not unique to the PRC, though. We're quick to label people as Armenian, but the bigger picture gets lost in the details about salvation. Belief in election/predestination is not a prerequisite for salvation. Salvation is not in the details, and we're quick to get caught up in the details. That said.... I think it's a pretty important detail so we shouldn't diminish it and it's worth discussing. I think it's important because God has all the power, not us. I really do believe we are dead in sin and cannot accept Christ on our own accord. It's only because He loved us first that we can love him back and have faith. So while it's important and a significant difference between some beliefs (and I appreciate discussing it!), it's not a prerequisite for salvation. I think H.H. even called it the "heart of the gospel". One certainly could not renounce the "heart of the gospel" and still be saved, could they? Do you feel many in the prc would think that a belief in predestination is a requirement, not only for membership of course, but for salvation?Well, I can't speak for the entire PRC membership... but I certainly don't think the predestination doctrine is required for salvation. I would say the "heart of the gospel" is that Christ paid for the sins of His people. The "heart" of the gospel is not defining "WHO" are His people (predestination) - that would be taking the focus off Christ and putting it on us. Here we go again... NO! The heart of the gospel is CHRIST. Not us. I would argue that the PRC does make believing in predestination a requirement for salvation. From Peace PRC - www.peaceprc.org/christofarm.htm"There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism. He has deceived people for many years and he continues to deceive millions. This Christ is so dangerous that, if it were not impossible, he would deceive the very elect (Matt. 24:24). He is the Christ of Arminianism. If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived!" I believe the PRC takes this even further in that it's not enough to state that you believe in predestination, but it must be 'double predestination".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 0:07:21 GMT
I appreciate your response and understand from where you come. However, could you please answer the questions in regards to the prc specifically? I think this is a great topic/discussion. You asked me a pointed question, so I'm going to ask you (or anyone out there...) a pointed question: If you do not agree/believe predestination or election, doesn't that give man more power than God? If he can chose to accept or reject God or the gospel, does that not give him more power than God? God wants to save him if only he accepts? God's hands are tied and His love is limited until someone decides to believe? Quoting myself : WE screwed up and WE don't deserve to be revived. The burden to love is NOT on God's shoulders. He is not to blame for those who aren't saved. I am going to follow Luther's advice and not debate the doctrine of election. Given that, I will answer your question regarding power. No! If you are a Christian, whether Reformed, Arminian, Catholic, or other, the power of salvation resides in the belief of the propitiation of Jesus Christ. The power is centered on the cross, no matter ones choice or election. That is the heart of the gospel, not, as H.H. says, predestination. I find no power in accepting a gift, rather I find repentance. As I have stated, I am not sure about this doctrine and am uncomfortable with the word "election", but I am certain of where the power resides in this religion called Christianity, whether one is pro choice or not.
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Post by mercy on Sept 19, 2015 0:09:55 GMT
I would argue that the PRC does make believing in predestination a requirement for salvation. From Peace PRC - www.peaceprc.org/christofarm.htm"There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism. He has deceived people for many years and he continues to deceive millions. This Christ is so dangerous that, if it were not impossible, he would deceive the very elect (Matt. 24:24). He is the Christ of Arminianism. If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived!" I believe the PRC takes this even further in that it's not enough to state that you believe in predestination, but it must be 'double predestination". I would argue that one minister (who is now inactive in the ministry) cannot definitively speak for the denomination. Yes, he was/is a pastoral leader, but I equate his words with Martin Luther. They are not infallible. Predestination is important - the power is in God's hand, not ours - but the alternative is NOT a deceiving and false Christ. Again, that puts too much power in the hands of man. Man decides which doctrine is "saving" doctrine or not? Nope, they don't get to decide that.
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Post by mercy on Sept 19, 2015 0:29:30 GMT
Not more muddled, but not any more clear. How do you define the love of God? Is it only as regards salvation? How do you interpret God's apparent mercy toward Cain in Genesis, chapter 4? In regards to this topic, I'd define the love of God as an all consuming and all powerful love. An "all or nothing" love. There is no half-way, no "God kinda loves you," or "God loves this part of you but not this other part of you" sort of love. God's love = God's grace = God's forgiveness and mercy. He can't "sort of, maybe" love people. He can't "maybe, it depends" forgive people. If He loves you, He loves you completely and without reservation - He loves you because you belong to His Son and you are righteous because of His Son. I read Genesis 4 and you raise a good question and I'm open to hear what you think. God did appear to have mercy on Cain, which goes against my "all or nothing" love from God. So is it possible for God to care about people who are not believers? If so, why would He expend any love/care toward those who don't love Him in return? I ask honestly - I'd love to hear thoughts and change my mind if I'm wrong. (Or are we getting WAY off topic.... a topic that is getting bogged down in details that aren't appropriate for this forum...)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 0:40:30 GMT
I would argue that the PRC does make believing in predestination a requirement for salvation. From Peace PRC - www.peaceprc.org/christofarm.htm"There is, however, another false Christ who is much more dangerous than the Christ of the cults and the Christ of Roman Catholicism. He has deceived people for many years and he continues to deceive millions. This Christ is so dangerous that, if it were not impossible, he would deceive the very elect (Matt. 24:24). He is the Christ of Arminianism. If you believe and serve the Christ of Arminianism, you must recognize the fact that you do not serve the Christ of the Bible. You have been deceived!" I believe the PRC takes this even further in that it's not enough to state that you believe in predestination, but it must be 'double predestination". I would argue that one minister (who is now inactive in the ministry) cannot definitively speak for the denomination. Yes, he was/is a pastoral leader, but I equate his words with Martin Luther. They are not infallible. Predestination is important - the power is in God's hand, not ours - but the alternative is NOT a deceiving and false Christ. Again, that puts too much power in the hands of man. Man decides which doctrine is "saving" doctrine or not? Nope, they don't get to decide that. I agree, he's not infallible (neither is the PRC). However, if Peace PRC is going to have this document publicly available on their website, that implies endorsement of it. If the document doesn't represent the beliefs of Peace PRC, then it shouldn't be there. By the way, I consider myself a pretty strong Calvinist, but the way the PRC handles the doctrines (e.g. the quote above) both grieves and angers me. Especially, since you'll never hear anyone state any kind of rebuttal to statements like in the quote (at least I've never heard any). I actually questioned a PRC pastor about this very thing. The response I got? {silence}
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Post by mercy on Sept 19, 2015 0:49:59 GMT
I agree, he's not infallible (neither is the PRC). However, if Peace PRC is going to have this document publicly available on their website, that implies endorsement of it. If the document doesn't represent the beliefs of Peace PRC, then it shouldn't be there.By the way, I consider myself a pretty strong Calvinist, but the way the PRC handles the doctrines (e.g. the quote above) both grieves and angers me. Especially, since you'll never hear anyone state any kind of rebuttal to statements like in the quote (at least I've never heard any). I actually questioned a PRC pastor about this very thing. The response I got? {silence} Great point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 1:30:29 GMT
Not more muddled, but not any more clear. How do you define the love of God? Is it only as regards salvation? How do you interpret God's apparent mercy toward Cain in Genesis, chapter 4? In regards to this topic, I'd define the love of God as an all consuming and all powerful love. An "all or nothing" love. There is no half-way, no "God kinda loves you," or "God loves this part of you but not this other part of you" sort of love. God's love = God's grace = God's forgiveness and mercy. He can't "sort of, maybe" love people. He can't "maybe, it depends" forgive people. If He loves you, He loves you completely and without reservation - He loves you because you belong to His Son and you are righteous because of His Son. I read Genesis 4 and you raise a good question and I'm open to hear what you think. God did appear to have mercy on Cain, which goes against my "all or nothing" love from God. So is it possible for God to care about people who are not believers? If so, why would He expend any love/care toward those who don't love Him in return? I ask honestly - I'd love to hear thoughts and change my mind if I'm wrong. (Or are we getting WAY off topic.... a topic that is getting bogged down in details that aren't appropriate for this forum...) Well, we're off topic from the suicide question, but this thread has morphed into something else. I believe the God of the Bible is infinitely greater than our minds can comprehend. God has revealed himself to us in the Bible, but not exhaustively. I believe in a triune God, but I can't explain in detail how that works. I believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but can't explain how that works. The same is true for the love of God - I think it's more complex than our minds can comprehend. We read in the Bible that God's wrath is being poured out on the wicked; we also read that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. How can that be? But if the Bible is true, then both must be true. There's a book called "The difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" by D.A. Carson that speaks to this very issue (and much better than I ever could). While I don't agree with everything he wrote, it's an excellent book and can be downloaded for free. I believe God's love toward his creation/creatures is much more complex than only the "saving love" the the PRC holds to. Obviously, I believe God did show mercy toward Cain; I don't think it can be shown that he was doing it only for the sake of his elect. Lastly, while this may seem like an insignificant detail, it has enormous ramifications in how we live our Christian life. Oh, one more thought for you about this. If Jesus is part of the triune God, if he fulfilled the Law perfectly on our behalf, and the Law is summed up in Matthew 22:37-39 - then God must have loved his unbelieving neighbor in some way.
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Post by cannalily on Sept 19, 2015 12:13:40 GMT
In regards to this topic, I'd define the love of God as an all consuming and all powerful love. An "all or nothing" love. There is no half-way, no "God kinda loves you," or "God loves this part of you but not this other part of you" sort of love. God's love = God's grace = God's forgiveness and mercy. He can't "sort of, maybe" love people. He can't "maybe, it depends" forgive people. If He loves you, He loves you completely and without reservation - He loves you because you belong to His Son and you are righteous because of His Son. I read Genesis 4 and you raise a good question and I'm open to hear what you think. God did appear to have mercy on Cain, which goes against my "all or nothing" love from God. So is it possible for God to care about people who are not believers? If so, why would He expend any love/care toward those who don't love Him in return? I ask honestly - I'd love to hear thoughts and change my mind if I'm wrong. (Or are we getting WAY off topic.... a topic that is getting bogged down in details that aren't appropriate for this forum...) Well, we're off topic from the suicide question, but this thread has morphed into something else. I believe the God of the Bible is infinitely greater than our minds can comprehend. God has revealed himself to us in the Bible, but not exhaustively. I believe in a triune God, but I can't explain in detail how that works. I believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but can't explain how that works. The same is true for the love of God - I think it's more complex than our minds can comprehend. We read in the Bible that God's wrath is being poured out on the wicked; we also read that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. How can that be? But if the Bible is true, then both must be true. There's a book called "The difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" by D.A. Carson that speaks to this very issue (and much better than I ever could). While I don't agree with everything he wrote, it's an excellent book and can be downloaded for free. I believe God's love toward his creation/creatures is much more complex than only the "saving love" the the PRC holds to. Obviously, I believe God did show mercy toward Cain; I don't think it can be shown that he was doing it only for the sake of his elect. Lastly, while this may seem like an insignificant detail, it has enormous ramifications in how we live our Christian life. Oh, one more thought for you about this. If Jesus is part of the triune God, if he fulfilled the Law perfectly on our behalf, and the Law is summed up in Matthew 22:37-39 - then God must have loved his unbelieving neighbor in some way.What an excellent point.
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potato
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Post by potato on Sept 20, 2015 20:06:55 GMT
I appreciate your response and understand from where you come. However, could you please answer the questions in regards to the prc specifically? I think this is a great topic/discussion. You asked me a pointed question, so I'm going to ask you (or anyone out there...) a pointed question: If you do not agree/believe predestination or election, doesn't that give man more power than God? If he can chose to accept or reject God or the gospel, does that not give him more power than God? God wants to save him if only he accepts? God's hands are tied and His love is limited until someone decides to believe? Quoting myself : WE screwed up and WE don't deserve to be revived. The burden to love is NOT on God's shoulders. He is not to blame for those who aren't saved. The way I understand love to work is that it's very possible to love someone without reciprocation on their part. To me if you are not willing to do this the feeling you have is not love. So when you decide you love God and he/she is already standing their loving you it shows God'd amazingness and power to love. I'm not sure how PRs understand love (or if they really do) but you can't force love on someone, or them to love you. If God chooses to love some and not others and created a world where they would sin how is he not responsible for them?
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potato
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Post by potato on Sept 20, 2015 20:11:30 GMT
I'm not certain about the theology of election, however, I don't think it is a requirement for faith, or as you said a deal breaker. Nevertheless, as I stated previously, I am uncomfortable with the term. The reason is contained in your last sentence. Logically then, it seems to me, one can say, "Nope, the only reason one can hate Him is because He hated this one first and made this one dead to Christ."
"the love and hate of God towards men is immutable and eternal, existing, not merely before there was any merit or work of ‘free-will,’ but before the world was made" - Martin Luther
I am uncomfortable with that. (edited to add: I'm also uncomfortable with ML's quote. I can't pinpoint why right now so need to think it over.... but ML words are not infallible!) Yes, I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure that sentence can be turned around. Here is my logic: God created a perfect world. Man had one requirement, to not eat of the tree of good and evil. He would die if he did. Man disobeyed. Man now knows good and evil and will die. Man is sinful. God's requirements have not been met. God is under no obligation to love/save man. Man will die, and die unhappy. God's Plan A was to send a savior to take the punishment for these sins. God is the creator, He's the potter (we are merely clay,) He is in charge. The savior He sends will not save everyone. Nobody really deserves this savior in the first place. So I guess my point is that God didn't hate first, man did. We're the ones who screwed up. We made ourselves hate God and made ourselves dead to Christ. We did this to ourselves. God was merciful and loved us despite of our rebellion and hate. He made His people alive, and left others dead in their sin. HE didn't make them dead, man did that to himself. So god created a world for man to fall in and yet he has no responsibility when man does exactly that? The way predestination makes this work it god has set up an invisible trip line, and it is up to man to not fall. When imperfect man does fall because that is how he was made it is OK that God helps up some people and stomps on the others? I'm so glad I don't have to live in the pr world where God is a child throwing a temper tantrum not getting his way instead of the loving parent he actually is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 2:30:42 GMT
I agree, he's not infallible (neither is the PRC). However, if Peace PRC is going to have this document publicly available on their website, that implies endorsement of it. If the document doesn't represent the beliefs of Peace PRC, then it shouldn't be there.By the way, I consider myself a pretty strong Calvinist, but the way the PRC handles the doctrines (e.g. the quote above) both grieves and angers me. Especially, since you'll never hear anyone state any kind of rebuttal to statements like in the quote (at least I've never heard any). I actually questioned a PRC pastor about this very thing. The response I got? {silence} Great point. Just wondering if you got any feedback from your pastor or elders about this.
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Post by mercy on Sept 24, 2015 16:32:02 GMT
Just wondering if you got any feedback from your pastor or elders about this. Not yet, but I haven't forgotten about it...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 23:08:57 GMT
Just wondering if you got any feedback from your pastor or elders about this. Not yet, but I haven't forgotten about it... Just wondering if you have an update for us. These questions are the kind that usually cause the PRC to go silent. Has that been your experience with your pastor and elders? If not, what did they say? Thanks.
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Post by mercy on Nov 6, 2015 18:00:42 GMT
Not yet, but I haven't forgotten about it... Just wondering if you have an update for us. These questions are the kind that usually cause the PRC to go silent. Has that been your experience with your pastor and elders? If not, what did they say? Thanks. Well, I've discussed it with my husband and father and am still mulling things over in my mind. I felt that I had to somewhat do my own digging to find answers and have a pretty good idea of where I stood and what I found before getting into a (potentially) long discussion with my pastor. I didn't want to ask with the "just tell me what to think and believe because I don't know" type of attitude. (Well, that absolutely wouldn't be my approach but didn't want it perceived that way.) So while I don't really have an answer for you, I wanted to reply so nobody thought I had gone silent.
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